ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlo..

"Liviu" <lab2k1.DeleteThis@gmail.c0m> wrote in message
news:eqpr2UXoIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> I'll top post, too, to keep the thread at least somewhat readable.

So you bread a book bottom up, do you?

"Gordon" <gbplinux DeleteThis @gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:fuakem$epn$1@news.mixmin.net...
> "Liviu" <lab2k1 DeleteThis @gmail.c0m> wrote in message
> news:eqpr2UXoIHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> I'll top post, too, to keep the thread at least somewhat readable.
>
> So you bread a book bottom up, do you?

No, but if someone started reading it to me backwards already, I might
as well continue in the same direction. If nothing else, makes it easier
to remember where to stop

WindowsLiveMailTechnologiesSupport.RemoveThis@discussions.microsoft.com wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I wanted to take some time to address the concerns/questions that have
> started on this thread.
>
> Microsoft is doing this to force people onto the client: False. We are
> doing this because the DAV protocol is inefficient on larger mailbox sizes.
> Once Hotmail upgrade storage space synchronization issues happen within DAV.
> DeltaSynch is a stable protocol that will be able to efficiently handle large
> accounts.

Will DeltaSync be a published protocol that any programmer can follow to
add it to their own non-Microsoft e-mail client? Will the command set
needed for the client to communicate with the Hotmail servers be
disclosed?

> This locks people into a Microsoft client to access Hotmail: False.

While there was some documentation regarding WebDAV, like
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2291, it really doesn't describe the
command set that is used between client and the Hotmail mail host. So
even if DeltaSync is a published protocol, will enough information be
dispersed by Microsoft to allow other e-mail clients to support
DeltaSync with whatever command set is required to communicate with
Hotmail? If not, users will be locked into using Microsoft e-mail
clients.


> Hotmail customers are able to utilize POP3, or as mentioned below,
> other clients such as Thunderbird.

As best as I can piece together, and after updating it today, my record
of Hotmail's history (obtained through Google, Wiki, and various other
sources) is:

Hotmail history (obtained through Google, Wiki, and various other
sources)

- 1996 July: Hotmail becomes available. Provides a webmail interface to
e-mail service.
- 1997 December: Microsoft buys Hotmail to include in their MSN
services.
- 1999 August: Anyone can log into any Hotmail account using the
password "eh"
(http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/1999/08/21503).
- 1999 December: Microsoft forgets to pay their passport.com domain
renewal fee. Hotmail is unavailable on Christmas Eve. A Linux
consultant pays the fee and Hotmail comes back up.
- 2000 February: For MSN Hotmail, POP3 access is discontinued and
switches to WebDAV access. MSN "legacy" accounts created before that
date continue
to get POP3 access. MSN Hotmail accounts created after that date only
get WebDAV access which restricts them to using Microsoft's Outlook or
Outlook Express e-mail clients (later some plug-ins or proxies become
available to allow non-Microsoft e-mail clients to access Hotmail but
they get killed in 2004 November except for paid accounts when WebDAV
access gets pulled from free accounts).
- 2002 July: For free Hotmail accounts, POP3 access is discontinued and
switches to WebDAV access. Hotmail PLUS (paying customers) gets
POP3/SMTP mail host access.
- 2003 (autumn): Microsoft forgets to pay their hotmail.co.uk domain
renewal fee. Another good Samaritan pays the fee. No downtime.
- 2004 November: Microsoft changes policy to disable WebDAV access for
*new* free Hotmail accounts created after that date. Old (and still
active) free accounts created before that policy change date (i.e.,
grandfathered accounts) continue to get WebDAV access. After this date,
Microsoft charges for WebDAV access. New plug-ins and proxies start
showing up to compensate. Old plug-ins and proxies still work with
non-Microsoft e-mail clients for *paid* Hotmail accounts where WebDAV
access remains.
- 2005 November: Microsoft officially announces Windows Live Mail
(codename Kahuna), later rebranded to Windows Live Hotmail. Goes
through some beta testing.
- 2006 November: Windows Live Hotmail first released to existing and new
Netherlands users as a pilot market.
- 2007 May: Microsoft releases Windows Live Hotmail to worldwide market.
Users can elect to stay with the MSN Hotmail or try the new Windows Live
Hotmail (classic or full) interface. They are given an option (which
eventually disappears) to switch back to MSN Hotmail.
- 2007 June: Microsoft introduces DeltaSync, its replacement for WebDAV.
- 2007 September: Users start reporting that Microsoft begins
involuntarily *forcing* MSN Hotmail users to migrate to the Windows Live
Hotmail interface. One day they were using MSN Hotmail, the next they
were forced to Windows Live Hotmail without any action on their part,
and they cannot switch back.
- 2007 September: POP3 access returns only for Windows Live Hotmail Plus
(paid) accounts but not for MSN Hotmail Premium (paid) accounts.
Requires SSL connects and SMTP authentication (pop3.live.com port 995,
smtp.live.com port 25 with SMTP authentication, SSL on both).
- 2008 June: Microsoft disables WebDAV on all accounts and forces use of
DeltaSync protocol. For free Windows Live Hotmail accounts, users will
need to use Outlook 2003 or 2007 with the Outlook Connector plug-in
(post-1.8 version) or the Windows Live Mail client. For PAID Windows
Live Hotmail accounts, users can use any POP3/SMTP e-mail client. The
webmail interface remains available for free and paid accounts as it has
been ever since Hotmail existed.

So you'll need to qualify your statement to "Only Windows Live Hotmail
*PLUS* customers are able to utilize POP3 as of November 2007".
"Hotmail" by itself includes all types of accounts: MSN, Hotmail, or
Windows Live Hotmail and free or paid. Only the paid Windows Live
Hotmail accounts get POP/SMTP access.

> Though Live Mail is optimized for usage against Hotmail, it
> is not the single choice for connection. You will also be able to continue
> full access through your browser.

Webmail access has been the substantive interface to Hotmail since its
debut almost 12 years ago in 1996. Nothing new there although it has
gone through facelifts and now adds Ajax. I don't think any Hotmail
user has ever pondered on policy changes, lack of POP/SMTP access,
WebDAV loss, change to DeltaSync, or the other myriad of changes to
non-webmail access to Hotmail to then wonder if there won't be a webmail
interface to Hotmail.

I forget when Microsoft decided to reduce from 2 to 1 advertisements in
the webmail interface to Hotmail but there are still plenty of users
that NEVER want to deal with the webmail interface despite the full
version of Windows Live Mail trying to act like a regular e-mail client.
You've seen a lot of whoopla over whether or not there is a webmail
interface to Hotmail?

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

>
> NB: There are Windows Live Hotmail subscribers who currently access
> their account(s) in OE via POP3. This change will not affect them.


In fact Windows Live Mail allows you to access hotmail account free of
charge even if it is a new account. The idea is MS wants everybody to
use Windows Live Email. OE is a dated technology and it is time to put
it in the museum!!

hth

- Hotmail begins with a webmail interface and provides POP3/SMTP access.
- POP3/SMTP were yanked by Microsoft and replaced with WebDAV.
- WebDAV is considered inadequate and replaced with DeltaSync.
- POP3/SMTP were added back to paid Hotmail accounts.

So if WebDAV was inadequate, why go to DeltaSync at all? Obviously
POP3/SMTP was considered adequate since it was re-offered on paid
accounts (and one MS blog says that it is planned to show up for free
accounts in another 12 months, and that blog was dated back in Nov
2007).

Microsoft goes to DeltaSync *AND* goes back to POP3/SMTP, so why not
just go back to POP3/SMTP? Actually I'd like to see IMAP offered. I'm
really not interested in yet another Microsoft proprietary protocol that
non-Microsoft clients cannot support.

Found an interesting blog of a meeting at:

POP3 on Hotmail Explained: we talk to Omar Shahine
http://www.liveside.net/blogs/interview/default.aspx

which has the meeting recorded (audio only) at:
http://www.liveside.net/files/folders/5578/download.aspx

When playing in Windows Media Player, under View -> Enchancements,
disable SRS (if on) and use the graphic equalizer to drop the bass end
to make the audio more clear.

They are making the same presumption as does GMail: the user wants to
leave all their e-mails up on the server whether read or not. Not me.
I want to locally manage all my e-mails. I don't want to leave them on
the server. So the huge disk space quotas proclaimed by Hotmail, Yahoo
Mail, Gmail, and others means very little to me. I yank the messages so
they are local and I don't need all that disk space for the mailbox.
Far more important is the per-message-size quota as regards to me
retrieving those message. Fortunately I haven't been afflicted with
boob senders that spew huge-sized messages because they know how to put
large files in online disk space and provide a link to it, or I'll
educate them on how to do that.

Microsoft is thinking of e-mail going forward as a substitute for file
transfer protocols (FTP) and obviously e-mail was never designed for
that. It was designed under a trust model to deliver large volumes of
small messages. Omar talks about tens of thousands of messages in the
mailbox whereas I never have more than a couple dozen because of my
e-mail client polling and yanking the e-mails not a whole lot after when
the e-mail arrived (I poll anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes depending on
the use of a particular account and its level of traffic). I do not
want large messages. If I started to get them, I'd configure Outlook to
NOT download them, I'd use the webmail interface to check them, and I'd
probably tell the sender to put their huge e-mail in an anatomical
orifice.

Please ask your Windows Live Mail-specific question here:
microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop

Via the web-interface:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/list/en-us/default.asp...g=micro

Via your newsreader:
news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop
--
~PA Bear


VanguardLH wrote:
<snip>
> Will DeltaSync be a published protocol that any programmer can follow to
> add it to their own non-Microsoft e-mail client? Will the command set
> needed for the client to communicate with the Hotmail servers be
> disclosed?
<snip>