external eSata enclosure drive recognition?

Well, the BIOS settings are on, so that's not the problem, as I checked it
again.

What is so weird is that the external eSata drive works fine (and is
properly recognized in windows) IF I initially turn it on, before booting up
the computer.

(Or if not, and I forgot to, I have to reboot after first turning it on).

And then if I turn it off while in windows, nothing appears to happen (it
still shows up in windows explorer, as if nothing happened). Which is
completely inaccurate, because when I turn it off, it IS gone.

Any other ideas? Maybe it has to do with some weirdness in the SATA II
spec.
This is a SATA II drive, but the Dell spec says its compatible with SATA I
and II.


Andrew E. wrote:
> By default SATA controller is off in most BIOS settings from the mfg,turn
> it on & set to use with IDE hds.Also,if SATA is on in BIOS,then also by
> default
> any new hd installed to pc & recognized by BIOS,usually gets selected as
> First boot hd priority,set BIOS properly in BIOS before xp starts to load.
>
> "Bill in Co." wrote:
>
>> I just added an external eSata HD (in a Vantec enclosure) to my new Dell
>> system, but it is only "recognized" after rebooting with it turned on
>> FIRST.
>>
>> IOW, if the external eSata HD enclosure unit is OFF and I power up the
>> computer, and then I turn on the external eSata HD enclosure, it isn't
>> recognized (not properly recognized, but there at least is some disk
>> activity noted after turning it on).
>>
>> The HD drive I put into the external enclosure was a new Western Digital
>> eSata drive, and it has no jumpers, but maybe that's normal for Sata
>> drives
>> these days.
>>
>> My question is: how do I tell if this weird problem is due to the hard
>> drive itself, or the external hard drive enclosure, or possibly even the
>> BIOS?
>>
>> It's a real nuisance to have to first turn on the external unit BEFORE
>> turning on the computer to get it to be recognized. It should be able
>> to
>> be recognized after the computer has booted up and THEN I turn it on.
>> But
>> it isn't for some reason.

Addendum.
There ought to be SOME way to narrow this pecularity down to being either 1)
an external eSata HD enclosure problem, or 2) the eSata hard drive itself,
or 3) a BIOS problem, or 4) a windows "communication" problem (in
continually checking the BIOS for connect/disconnect of the external drive).

(or maybe it's a combo of two of the above).

Or at least that's my understanding.

Bill in Co. wrote:
> Well, the BIOS settings are on, so that's not the problem, as I checked it
> again.
>
> What is so weird is that the external eSata drive works fine (and is
> properly recognized in windows) IF I initially turn it on, before booting
> up
> the computer.
>
> (Or if not, and I forgot to, I have to reboot after first turning it on).
>
> And then if I turn it off while in windows, nothing appears to happen (it
> still shows up in windows explorer, as if nothing happened). Which is
> completely inaccurate, because when I turn it off, it IS gone.
>
> Any other ideas? Maybe it has to do with some weirdness in the SATA II
> spec.
> This is a SATA II drive, but the Dell spec says its compatible with SATA I
> and II.
>
>
> Andrew E. wrote:
>> By default SATA controller is off in most BIOS settings from the
>> mfg,turn
>> it on & set to use with IDE hds.Also,if SATA is on in BIOS,then also by
>> default
>> any new hd installed to pc & recognized by BIOS,usually gets selected as
>> First boot hd priority,set BIOS properly in BIOS before xp starts to
>> load.
>>
>> "Bill in Co." wrote:
>>
>>> I just added an external eSata HD (in a Vantec enclosure) to my new Dell
>>> system, but it is only "recognized" after rebooting with it turned on
>>> FIRST.
>>>
>>> IOW, if the external eSata HD enclosure unit is OFF and I power up the
>>> computer, and then I turn on the external eSata HD enclosure, it isn't
>>> recognized (not properly recognized, but there at least is some disk
>>> activity noted after turning it on).
>>>
>>> The HD drive I put into the external enclosure was a new Western Digital
>>> eSata drive, and it has no jumpers, but maybe that's normal for Sata
>>> drives
>>> these days.
>>>
>>> My question is: how do I tell if this weird problem is due to the hard
>>> drive itself, or the external hard drive enclosure, or possibly even the
>>> BIOS?
>>>
>>> It's a real nuisance to have to first turn on the external unit BEFORE
>>> turning on the computer to get it to be recognized. It should be
>>> able
>>> to
>>> be recognized after the computer has booted up and THEN I turn it on.
>>> But
>>> it isn't for some reason.

Bill in Co. wrote:
> Addendum.
> There ought to be SOME way to narrow this pecularity down to being either 1)
> an external eSata HD enclosure problem, or 2) the eSata hard drive itself,
> or 3) a BIOS problem, or 4) a windows "communication" problem (in
> continually checking the BIOS for connect/disconnect of the external drive).
>
> (or maybe it's a combo of two of the above).
>
> Or at least that's my understanding.
>

You're missing "hotplug". It takes a combination of the right setting
for the port in the BIOS, and driver to go with it, to get support.
If it is working, then you'd see a "Safely Remove" icon at the bottom
of your Windows screen. AFAIK, a default IDE driver for a SATA drive,
doesn't have hotplug or hotswap capability, and it takes another mode
such as AHCI or RAID mode, to fix it.

If the ESATA port on the computer, is hosted by a separate chip, it
should be relatively painless to fix.

Hot-plugging is mentioned here, in this AHCI article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Host_Controller_Interface

Moving the boot drive, from one controller on the motherboard, to
another controller, or to a separate controller purchased and
installed in a PCI slot, may allow making changes to the driver
and BIOS setting. It all depends on where the ESATA port is hosted,
as to how messy the fix would be. That is why I mentioned a "separate
chip" issue as being easier to fix, as there is no interaction with
the boot drive and its driver, while you're fixing it.

Paul

Paul wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> Addendum.
>> There ought to be SOME way to narrow this pecularity down to being either
>> 1)
>> an external eSata HD enclosure problem, or 2) the eSata hard drive
>> itself,
>> or 3) a BIOS problem, or 4) a windows "communication" problem (in
>> continually checking the BIOS for connect/disconnect of the external
>> drive).
>>
>> (or maybe it's a combo of two of the above).
>>
>> Or at least that's my understanding.
>>
>
> You're missing "hotplug". It takes a combination of the right setting
> for the port in the BIOS, and driver to go with it, to get support.
> If it is working, then you'd see a "Safely Remove" icon at the bottom
> of your Windows screen. AFAIK, a default IDE driver for a SATA drive,
> doesn't have hotplug or hotswap capability, and it takes another mode
> such as AHCI or RAID mode, to fix it.

Thanks Paul. I did some more reading on this last nite, and apparently
one needs AHCI to support this "hot plugging" capability. And since I only
have the older Intel ICH9 controller, it isn't supported, nor are drivers
available for AHCI from Intel that will update it (although there is an
unsupported patch for AHCI at one of the MSDN sites that *supposedly* will
allow the standard ICH9 driver to be patched to get AHCI, instead of just
IDE emulation of SATA.

> If the ESATA port on the computer, is hosted by a separate chip, it
> should be relatively painless to fix.

It seems it is not upgradeable with a driver from Intel (I mean for the
standard ICH9 controller; I read about that over at the Intel site, and its
requirements).

> Hot-plugging is mentioned here, in this AHCI article.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Host_Controller_Interface

Yup, that's one of the articles I read last night - thanks.
I think it also referenced that unsupported AHCI patch (for non RAID Intel
controller), too.

> Moving the boot drive, from one controller on the motherboard, to
> another controller, or to a separate controller purchased and
> installed in a PCI slot, may allow making changes to the driver
> and BIOS setting. It all depends on where the ESATA port is hosted,
> as to how messy the fix would be.

That's what I'm getting, when reading about this some more. It's seems it
can be a bit problematic - and a bit risky.

> That is why I mentioned a "separate
> chip" issue as being easier to fix, as there is no interaction with
> the boot drive and its driver, while you're fixing it.

Well, I'm just not sure about the "separate chip" thing here that your
mentioning.

The only thing I can tell you is that I evidently have an Intel ICH9
controller on the MB, and NOT the newer Intel ICH9R (etc) series, that does
support AHCI and has hot plugging capability (since it is not just an IDE
emulation of SATA).

I can see that in BIOS too, since the only selection for SATA is the IDE
emulation one. In other words, no AHCI.

(I'm not sure if I can get around this by adding a PCI controller card (to
allow for AHCI). But perhaps - but I think it's a bit risky, given
what's already set up and configured on the MB (the ICH9).

Bill in Co. wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>> Addendum.
>>> There ought to be SOME way to narrow this pecularity down to being either
>>> 1)
>>> an external eSata HD enclosure problem, or 2) the eSata hard drive
>>> itself,
>>> or 3) a BIOS problem, or 4) a windows "communication" problem (in
>>> continually checking the BIOS for connect/disconnect of the external
>>> drive).
>>>
>>> (or maybe it's a combo of two of the above).
>>>
>>> Or at least that's my understanding.
>>>
>> You're missing "hotplug". It takes a combination of the right setting
>> for the port in the BIOS, and driver to go with it, to get support.
>> If it is working, then you'd see a "Safely Remove" icon at the bottom
>> of your Windows screen. AFAIK, a default IDE driver for a SATA drive,
>> doesn't have hotplug or hotswap capability, and it takes another mode
>> such as AHCI or RAID mode, to fix it.
>
> Thanks Paul. I did some more reading on this last nite, and apparently
> one needs AHCI to support this "hot plugging" capability. And since I only
> have the older Intel ICH9 controller, it isn't supported, nor are drivers
> available for AHCI from Intel that will update it (although there is an
> unsupported patch for AHCI at one of the MSDN sites that *supposedly* will
> allow the standard ICH9 driver to be patched to get AHCI, instead of just
> IDE emulation of SATA.
>
>> If the ESATA port on the computer, is hosted by a separate chip, it
>> should be relatively painless to fix.
>
> It seems it is not upgradeable with a driver from Intel (I mean for the
> standard ICH9 controller; I read about that over at the Intel site, and its
> requirements).
>
>> Hot-plugging is mentioned here, in this AHCI article.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Host_Controller_Interface
>
> Yup, that's one of the articles I read last night - thanks.
> I think it also referenced that unsupported AHCI patch (for non RAID Intel
> controller), too.
>
>> Moving the boot drive, from one controller on the motherboard, to
>> another controller, or to a separate controller purchased and
>> installed in a PCI slot, may allow making changes to the driver
>> and BIOS setting. It all depends on where the ESATA port is hosted,
>> as to how messy the fix would be.
>
> That's what I'm getting, when reading about this some more. It's seems it
> can be a bit problematic - and a bit risky.
>
>> That is why I mentioned a "separate
>> chip" issue as being easier to fix, as there is no interaction with
>> the boot drive and its driver, while you're fixing it.
>
> Well, I'm just not sure about the "separate chip" thing here that your
> mentioning.
>
> The only thing I can tell you is that I evidently have an Intel ICH9
> controller on the MB, and NOT the newer Intel ICH9R (etc) series, that does
> support AHCI and has hot plugging capability (since it is not just an IDE
> emulation of SATA).
>
> I can see that in BIOS too, since the only selection for SATA is the IDE
> emulation one. In other words, no AHCI.
>
> (I'm not sure if I can get around this by adding a PCI controller card (to
> allow for AHCI). But perhaps - but I think it's a bit risky, given
> what's already set up and configured on the MB (the ICH9).
>

You could add a card to the machine, if there is a slot empty. For example,
a SIL3132 or other SATA 3Gbit/sec chip, would possibly do the job. Some
are set up as ESATA cards, with one or two connectors on the faceplate.
The SIL3132 has a PCI Express x1 interface, and isn't a plain PCI chip.

You can add a card like that, and install a driver, without having to
do anything to the rest of your setup.

I didn't see mention of the Dell model number of your machine, and maybe
I could look at the motherboard picture, to see what other options are
available.

Paul

Paul wrote:
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> Paul wrote:
>>> Bill in Co. wrote:
>>>> Addendum.
>>>> There ought to be SOME way to narrow this pecularity down to being
>>>> either
>>>> 1) an external eSata HD enclosure problem, or 2) the eSata hard drive
>>>> itself,
>>>> or 3) a BIOS problem, or 4) a windows "communication" problem (in
>>>> continually checking the BIOS for connect/disconnect of the external
>>>> drive).
>>>>
>>>> (or maybe it's a combo of two of the above).
>>>>
>>>> Or at least that's my understanding.
>>>>
>>> You're missing "hotplug". It takes a combination of the right setting
>>> for the port in the BIOS, and driver to go with it, to get support.
>>> If it is working, then you'd see a "Safely Remove" icon at the bottom
>>> of your Windows screen. AFAIK, a default IDE driver for a SATA drive,
>>> doesn't have hotplug or hotswap capability, and it takes another mode
>>> such as AHCI or RAID mode, to fix it.
>>
>> Thanks Paul. I did some more reading on this last nite, and apparently
>> one needs AHCI to support this "hot plugging" capability. And since I
>> only
>> have the older Intel ICH9 controller, it isn't supported, nor are drivers
>> available for AHCI from Intel that will update it (although there is an
>> unsupported patch for AHCI at one of the MSDN sites that *supposedly*
>> will
>> allow the standard ICH9 driver to be patched to get AHCI, instead of just
>> IDE emulation of SATA.
>>
>>> If the ESATA port on the computer, is hosted by a separate chip, it
>>> should be relatively painless to fix.
>>
>> It seems it is not upgradeable with a driver from Intel (I mean for the
>> standard ICH9 controller; I read about that over at the Intel site, and
>> its
>> requirements).
>>
>>> Hot-plugging is mentioned here, in this AHCI article.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Host_Controller_Interface
>>
>> Yup, that's one of the articles I read last night - thanks.
>> I think it also referenced that unsupported AHCI patch (for non RAID
>> Intel
>> controller), too.
>>
>>> Moving the boot drive, from one controller on the motherboard, to
>>> another controller, or to a separate controller purchased and
>>> installed in a PCI slot, may allow making changes to the driver
>>> and BIOS setting. It all depends on where the ESATA port is hosted,
>>> as to how messy the fix would be.
>>
>> That's what I'm getting, when reading about this some more. It's seems
>> it
>> can be a bit problematic - and a bit risky.
>>
>>> That is why I mentioned a "separate
>>> chip" issue as being easier to fix, as there is no interaction with
>>> the boot drive and its driver, while you're fixing it.
>>
>> Well, I'm just not sure about the "separate chip" thing here that your
>> mentioning.
>>
>> The only thing I *can* tell you is that I evidently have an Intel ICH9
>> controller on the MB, and NOT the newer Intel ICH9R (etc) series that
>> does
>> support AHCI and has hot plugging capability (since it is not just an IDE
>> emulation of SATA).
>>
>> I can see that in BIOS, too, since the only selection for SATA is the IDE
>> emulation one. In other words, no AHCI.
>>
>> (I'm not sure if I can get around this by adding a PCI controller card
>> (to
>> allow for AHCI). But perhaps - but I think it's a bit risky, given
>> what's already set up and configured on the MB (the ICH9).
>>
>
> You could add a card to the machine, if there is a slot empty. For
> example,
> a SIL3132 or other SATA 3Gbit/sec chip, would possibly do the job. Some
> are set up as ESATA cards, with one or two connectors on the faceplate.
> The SIL3132 has a PCI Express x1 interface, and isn't a plain PCI chip.
>
> You can add a card like that, and install a driver, without having to
> do anything to the rest of your setup.

I do have a PCI and PCI Express slot available. But right now, I simply
put the eSata connector cable and mounting bracket in there, so that I can
plug in my external eSata HD enclosure into the computer in the back, using
the SATA cables.

> I didn't see mention of the Dell model number of your machine, and maybe

I have a Dell Inspiron 530, and I am using Windows XP Home Edition.
I know it has the ICH9 controller, at least, and NOT the newer ICH9R, etc,
which has AHCI)

> I could look at the motherboard picture, to see what other options are
> available.

Thanks.
I also reread some more about that MSFN unofficial AHCI patch again, at this
web site (referenced in that wiki article you mentioned), but am slightly
wary of this. But, who knows??? And it is at one of the MSFN sites, so
that ought to count for something. Here is the link:

http://www.msfn.org/board/How-to-enable-AHCI-on-Intel-ICH9-under-X-t109450.html

If that patch worked, it sure would be a cheap way to get AHCI installed, as
it "just" involves updating some files (uses a few tweaks to get AHCI to be
"allowed").

But your idea of a separate controller card sounds perhaps better, and
safer, I guess, albeit more expensive. Although I'm not sure if it would
mess up any of my other SATA stuff (like the primary HD, and possibly the
DVD drive, although they are connected I presume through the ICH9 controller
on the MB, which hopefully not conflict in any way with another controller
being added to the system. I'm not sure how the Dell BIOS would handle or
even recognize this changeover, however. As it is now, the Dell BIOS only
shows the option for IDE emulation of SATA, since that goes with the Intel
MB and chipsets I have on this Dell 530, presumably.