speech recognition & e-mail messages probs !!!

Thanks for the response Rob,

You may have a point Rob, about the sound around me I mean, but I have the
television muted and the only sound you can hear, is the sound of my bed
which is a specialist bed which uses pumps to keep the mattress at a certain
state. The Mic I have is an integral one built into my laptop and it is very
sensitive. Having said that, I do not think that is the problem, I think that
it is more fundamental than that. Thanks for the recommendation on the
"Dragon" program. I too have heard that it is really good now, if I'm right,
I think the correct program is "Dragon Naturally Speaking 9.5 Preferred"

Perhaps the experts out there could answer my original question on the
speech recognition working with emails etc.

I remember posting to this forum before, and if I remember rightly, Mark L.
Ferguson and John Barnett were the very helpful MVP's then, perhaps they can
help me with this question?
--
andy t


"Rob" wrote:

> 2nd question, Dragon naturally speaking is better than the default vista one. Accuracy is a
> little bit better, but the functionality is way better.
>
> In ur first question, the only thing I can think is u are saying what you want to type, and
> saying something that speech interprets as a command. say "what can I say" and check that
> nothing ur saying is interfering with the command menus.
>
> also might seem obvious, don't have TV or radio going lol
>
>
>
> "andy t" <andyt.DeleteThis@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:96EC93F8-3420-4B65-89EC-460533282B6A@microsoft.com...
> >I am getting to grips with the Windows Vista "speech recognition" program.
> > Being a quadriplegic, I find it a Godsend, however, there are still some
> > things about the program that frustrate me and an answer to this question
> > would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > When I am dictating an e-mail, I seem to lose all of the punctuation and
> > direction commands and the speech recognition just keeps on typing what I am
> > saying. For example; if I say comma, or space, or backspace, it just types
> > the written word just like I have above and it just keeps on typing what I am
> > saying. Even in a message like this, it will start perfect and "text to
> > speech" will be working fine and then all of a sudden, "text to speech"
> > disappears and an alternatives panel comes up for me to choose which text I
> > want, which is not good for me. Can any one resolve this for me or tell me if
> > I am doing something wrong?
> >
> > Another question: is the "Dragon Naturally Speaking" a superior program to
> > the "Windows Vista Speech Recognition" program and these problems I mention
> > above, do they or do they not arise in the Dragon program?
> >
> > An answer to these questions would help me immensely.
> > --
> > andy t
>
>
>
> --
> If you don't stand behind ur soldiers, feel free to stand infront
>
>

Hi Andy,

My name is Grant, and I am a relatively long time user of Dragon
NaturallySpeaking. I'm not handicapped but I use it just because of its
convenience. The general answer to your question is that, (in my
opinion) DNS is infinitely better than Vista speech recognition at this
point in time. The reason is Dragon NaturallySpeaking came into being
in the late 1990s and has been continuously improved through ten
versions (Ver.10 was introduced this month). Microsoft introduced their
speech recognition program about five years ago in Office 2003. Many
people don't know that the Office 2003 version even exists because
Microsoft never publicized it. Some people feel the 2007 version in
Vista does not work as well as the older version. Actually, the
recognition accuracy is equal to DNS, but the many functions are lacking
because the necessary user features have not been developed
sufficiently. At the rate things are going I believe it will take at
least three years before Microsoft speech recognition is competitive
with DNS.

What I suggest is that you join the "KnowBrainer" forum. The URL is:
'KnowBrainer Forums - Forums'
(http://www.knowbrainer.com/PubForum/index.cfm)

In my opinion the KnowBrainer forum is the best source of information
and help anywhere on the Internet for Dragon NaturallySpeaking and also
for speech recognition in general. If you click on that page you will
see that the forum has several sections. The second from the top is
Naturally Speaking, for DNS. The seventh from the top is for Microsoft
Vista Speech. It's moderated by Mr. Rob Chambers who actually works for
Microsoft on the Vista speech project. Any questions you have about
Vista speech recognition can be posted there.

The first section on the forum is devoted to "KnowBrainer" software,
a program that functions with Dragon NaturallySpeaking. It consists of
a large quantity of "macros", i.e. voice operated commands that make
hands-free operation of your computer possible. The KnowBrainer Company
is managed by Mr. Lunis Orcutt, who also moderates the KnowBrainer
forum. (They also sell all versions of Dragon NaturallySpeaking and a
large assortment of microphones suitable for speech recognition.) I
think the retail price of KnowBrainer software is around $180 but Lunis
provides free copies to handicapped people.

I'm dictating this with Dragon NaturallySpeaking Preferred, version
9.5. Although version 10 is now on the market I will not purchase it
for at least three months because I have found that there are always a
few bugs in the new versions . If you're interested in buying DNS
version 9 there are some good deals right now. I see one on Amazon.com
with a $50 rebate. If you buy Version 9 Preferred you can upgrade to
Version 9.5 with a free download from Nuance, the maker. Information
about downloading the 9.5 upgrade is available on the KnowBrainer forum.
I would suggest going this route and in a few months you can upgrade to
version 10. That's what I'm going to do anyway. Actually, version 9.5
works so darn well I'm not sure I want to upgrade to version 10 .
I'm getting almost 100% one accuracy right now.

You have any questions about microphones or what kind of computer
works well for DNS I'll be happy to give you my thoughts. The proper
microphone is one of the most important things to achieve high
recognition accuracy.

Regards,
Grant


--
Grantx

In article <0f61035990f578c875192242e3f08b71.DeleteThis@nntp-gateway.com>,
Grantx <guest.DeleteThis@unknown-email.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
> My name is Grant, and I am a relatively long time user of Dragon
> NaturallySpeaking...<heavily clipped rest of excellent post>...


Grant, that was a very good post to Andy.

I second all your suggestions.

Mark-


(Andy, do not read the following optional comments
under any circumstances, as they will fry
your brain. Do not say I did not warn you)

--
Will add a few observations of my own.


Warning, this is going to be long, so stop
reading now, get some snacks, find a very
comfortable chair, turn on the "Pink Panther"
on television for background.
******************************************

Newbies to speech recognition have it rough,
us old timers sometimes forget the hassle
we went through getting our skill level
up to par.

Unfortunately, there are many booby traps
associated with speech recognition, no matter
which speech app one chooses.

....and believe me, there are great practical
differences between the available speech apps.

Some really stink, from a "practical" standpoint.

For example, for Mac users, recently a brand new
speech app was created way back in April, the name
is "MacSpeech Dictate" version 1.0

All sorts of fanfare, great press releases, most
everyone had great things to say about it.

One glaring omission, there was no way for a user
to "train" the program to properly recognize a word
that the program consistently got wrong.

That is a death sentence for any speech app.

To this day, they have not added correction features.

Mac users no longer talk about MacSpeech Dictate,
they are ignoring that app, like it was never created.


Now for a change of pace, some good news
---------------------------------------

Recently, using a very high priced version of Dragon,
along with many high priced hardware attachments,
and my skill level developed over many years,
I dictated the following speech snippet
to the Dragon app.



X-Linked agammaglobulinemia (Bruton's agammaglobulinemia)
is a hereditary immunodeficiency disorder due to an
abnormality in the X chromosome and resulting in few or
no B lymphocytes and very low levels of antibodies.


The above is the raw text output, there is one mistake.

I did not have to spell anything. For example,
Dragon recognized "Bruton's agammaglobulinemia"
as being a standard malady.

Dragon made one tiny mistake that I corrected
by voice. The mistake was:

"resulting in few are no"



That had to be corrected to:

"resulted in few or no"


Dragon did an excellent job of recognizing all that
medical gibberish, because I used the "full" medical
version of Dragon.

Don't even ask me how much it cost, as I am still
in shock from paying that price several months ago.




The medical fraternity in the U.S. spends ten billion
dollars annually converting speech into text.

It obviously pays off, because they still employ it.



Now a few words about speed of operation
----------------------------------------

Most people speak in the range of 100 wpm to 200 wpm,
depending on the speaker and the complexity of the
words they are saying.

"Speed Talkers" presently can speak a bit faster
than 600 wpm.

For a new speed record to be awarded, they are given
the choice of reading a passage from the bible, or a
passage from Shakespeare, those passages picked
by the judges of course.

They have to read for a 60 second interval.

The panel of judges slows down their speech by means of
electronic devices that do not distort their speech.

PROVIDED no syllable of any word is mis-pronounced,
a new worlds record will be awarded.



Anyhow, in testing Dragon on my Mac, I managed to speak
at the rate of 336 wpm for 60 seconds.

(my tongue will never be the same again, think I broke it)

All 336 words were flawless, no mistakes, so I am happy
with the speed performance of Dragon on my Mac.



Back to speech app drawbacks
----------------------------

No matter how much you pay for a speech app, they still
make mistakes.

For example, no speech app that I am aware of can
properly handle homonyms such as: to too two


All present speech apps are afflicted with all sorts of
problems, which you do not discover until you actually
use the speech app during everyday use.

toappreciatetheproblemhereiswhatthespeechapphears

(I did that previous line deliberately, to show you
what any speech program has to contend with,
it is surprising they work as well as they do)

The same line with proper spacing and punctuation:
"To appreciate the problem,
here is what the speech app hears."



Try not to be discouraged by the deluge of stuff
associated with speech-to-text technology
----------------------------------------

Sure, it is tough, but no pain, no gain.

Pay your dues like we had to, learning, experimenting,
possibly wasting money on stuff that does not work.

(I have a top rated $400 Sennheiser microphone that
is gathering dust because it did not work for me)


What did I do? I turned right around and bought a
slightly different model $400 Sennheiser, which is
a prized possession; it picks up my soft voice at a
distance of 50 inches with amazing accuracy.

....and I am on welfare, your taxes are paying for all
of my gear, thank you.

BTW, some of my $20 microphones, the ones _included_
with Dragon, are every bit as good as that $400 mic,
as far as accuracy of text is concerned.

Good luck Andy

....now go back and re-read Grant's post, there is a lot
of good advice there.

Like Grant suggested, I would recommend starting out
with Dragon Preferred to keep the cost down until you
get your feet wet with this extremely fussy technology.

I have a copy of it myself, along with its included
microphone, it is every bit as accurate as my $1,200
version 9.5 of medical Dragon, when it comes to
everyday speech.

With effort, that $200 version of Preferred can be
made to recognize medical words such as:

pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

....a malady caused by breathing the fine silica dust
from an actively erupting volcano.


I myself could never again be happy with the Preferred
version, because it is missing too many useful features
for my taste.

Above all, avoid the $100 "Standard" version like
the plague, it is missing way too many useful features,
such as the ability to use the original speech audio.

Even the Preferred version will "lose the audio" if you
shut down the Dragon app, which means you have to do all
your text correction _before_ closing the Dragon app.

Sleep mode is okay, but anything that exits Dragon
will lose the audio, permanently.

That audio is _very_ _important_.

The $900 "Pro" version can permanently save the audio.

Rule of thumb: Correcting the text will take as long as
your original dictation. If you dictate for an hour,
it will take an additional hour to correct mistakes.

Chain stores like Office Depot are a good place to buy
the Preferred version.

Just be hesitant about apparent bargains online, for
fear they might be pirated versions.

Hi Andy,

This is addressed to you, regarding Dragon NaturallySpeaking (DNS)
pros and cons.

Speech recognition is a very complex technology and it's not perfect
by any means. But it has improved tremendously in the last 10 years and
is now very useful for almost anyone willing to take a little time to
learn how it works. For native English-speaking voices the "training"
only takes a few minutes You do not need to buy the expensive medical
version (or other "professional" versions) to get good results. The
"preferred" version is the one that's used by most people for general
dictation. This may sound strange but complex medical terms are more
easily recognized than some words used in general vocabulary because
medical versions of DNS are designed specifically to recognize them. So
don't be put off by this, you don't need the medical version of DNS
unless you are a doctor transcribing reports.

It's not necessary to buy the most expensive Sennheiser microphone.
There are several microphones that sell for $100 or less that work fine.
I'm using a headset microphone sold by RadioShack for about $20 (model
33-3012) and getting excellent recognition (usually over 98%). However
for handicapped persons other types of microphones might be necessary,
such as those using a microphone boom which can be positioned to operate
hands-free. Also there are several wireless microphones that can be
used. Possibly you're already familiar with this but if you have any
questions I suggest posting a query on the KnowBrainer forum. There are
many knowledgeable people participating on that forum and you will get
some excellent advice.

The microphone supplied with the DNS software is a rather low quality
model to keep the cost down, and does not give satisfactory results.

DNS does make mistakes with words that sound the same, such as to,
too, and two. Also there and their. But it's easy to edit these words
when mistakes occur.

Here's a tip: When correcting a mistake it's best to select a phrase
of three or four words including the error when making the correction.
If you select one word out of a paragraph DNS does not have enough data
to decide which word is correct, but if you select the word in a phrase
of other words you have a better chance because DNS works by associating
the wrong word with nearby words to decide the most likely possibility.


Re: Vista speech recognition (VSR). The advantage of VSR is it has
been designed to control many functions of Windows and other Microsoft
programs with built-in voice macros. Therefore many people find it
convenient to use both VSR and DNS. You can have both programs running
simultaneously and switch between them. It's possible that Vista speech
recognition will be your best tool in the long run -- once they sort out
the other features that are lacking (the editing features DNS has). If
you monitor the KnowBrainer forum section on VSR moderated by Rob
Chambers, you will be able to keep up with the latest developments.

I agree you have to be careful when buying DNS from unknown vendors
because there are some illegal copies being sold. I noticed that Lunis
Orcutt has still a few copies of DNS Preferred ver. 9, (full version not
upgrade) priced at $99 listed on his website.

Grant


--
Grantx

Thank you very much Grant in replying to me in so much detail !

I most certainly will visit that forum you have suggested. I have some
follow-up question's and information four you.

I am quadriplegic, I had a car accident and unfortunately I broke my neck.
So you can see how important these programmes are for me.

Firstly, I should point out that I live in the UK, so do you think that
Lunis would
stretch to giving out a free copy over here?

Secondly, I have a "Dell" laptop and it has an integral Mic which is extremely
sensitive, and this works perfectly with the Pre installed
"Windows Vista
Home Premium" which came with my laptop. So if I installed a
DNS
program on my laptop, surely the integral Mic that I have
would be
sufficient would it not?

Finally, Yes I have been told that DNS 9.5 Preferred is one of the best
around, but
what about DNS Professional? Is that even better than the 9.5
version?

I find Vista's SR program a great improvement on all versions from four
years ago when I was still in hospital and it gradually learns from your
mistakes and improves itself the more you use it. The only thing that I think
needs improving is the voice commands. After reading your report, you
recommend that you have both "Vista's SR" & DNS installed so you can choose
and interact with which one you want, that sounds very cool and interesting.
Thanks again for all the advice Grant, it is a great help.
--
andy t


"Grantx" wrote:

>
> Hi Andy,
>
> This is addressed to you, regarding Dragon NaturallySpeaking (DNS)
> pros and cons.
>
> Speech recognition is a very complex technology and it's not perfect
> by any means. But it has improved tremendously in the last 10 years and
> is now very useful for almost anyone willing to take a little time to
> learn how it works. For native English-speaking voices the "training"
> only takes a few minutes You do not need to buy the expensive medical
> version (or other "professional" versions) to get good results. The
> "preferred" version is the one that's used by most people for general
> dictation. This may sound strange but complex medical terms are more
> easily recognized than some words used in general vocabulary because
> medical versions of DNS are designed specifically to recognize them. So
> don't be put off by this, you don't need the medical version of DNS
> unless you are a doctor transcribing reports.
>
> It's not necessary to buy the most expensive Sennheiser microphone.
> There are several microphones that sell for $100 or less that work fine.
> I'm using a headset microphone sold by RadioShack for about $20 (model
> 33-3012) and getting excellent recognition (usually over 98%). However
> for handicapped persons other types of microphones might be necessary,
> such as those using a microphone boom which can be positioned to operate
> hands-free. Also there are several wireless microphones that can be
> used. Possibly you're already familiar with this but if you have any
> questions I suggest posting a query on the KnowBrainer forum. There are
> many knowledgeable people participating on that forum and you will get
> some excellent advice.
>
> The microphone supplied with the DNS software is a rather low quality
> model to keep the cost down, and does not give satisfactory results.
>
> DNS does make mistakes with words that sound the same, such as to,
> too, and two. Also there and their. But it's easy to edit these words
> when mistakes occur.
>
> Here's a tip: When correcting a mistake it's best to select a phrase
> of three or four words including the error when making the correction.
> If you select one word out of a paragraph DNS does not have enough data
> to decide which word is correct, but if you select the word in a phrase
> of other words you have a better chance because DNS works by associating
> the wrong word with nearby words to decide the most likely possibility.
>
>
> Re: Vista speech recognition (VSR). The advantage of VSR is it has
> been designed to control many functions of Windows and other Microsoft
> programs with built-in voice macros. Therefore many people find it
> convenient to use both VSR and DNS. You can have both programs running
> simultaneously and switch between them. It's possible that Vista speech
> recognition will be your best tool in the long run -- once they sort out
> the other features that are lacking (the editing features DNS has). If
> you monitor the KnowBrainer forum section on VSR moderated by Rob
> Chambers, you will be able to keep up with the latest developments.
>
> I agree you have to be careful when buying DNS from unknown vendors
> because there are some illegal copies being sold. I noticed that Lunis
> Orcutt has still a few copies of DNS Preferred ver. 9, (full version not
> upgrade) priced at $99 listed on his website.
>
> Grant
>
>
> --
> Grantx
>

Hi Andy,

Yes I'm pretty certain you are eligible for free copy of KnowBrainer
according to what I understand from the forum. Actually it would be
sent to you by e-mail so there's no shipping involved, just a program
that you can download on your computer.

This is only a brief message because the hour is late and I have to
get up early tomorrow . But the quick answer to your question about
the microphone is you need to use an external microphone not the one on
the laptop if you're going to use DNS. There are a dozen good reasons.
This would be a good question for you to post on the forum.

Also, you do not need to buy the expensive professional version of
DNS; the Preferred version has the same recognition engine as the
professional version and works just as well for most purposes. The
difference between the preferred and the professional version is the
professional version has some programming capability, i.e. macro
programming. But the KnowBrainer program is intended for macro
programming; better than that it has over 10,000 preprogrammed macros
(according to Lunis) that you can select from, so you don't have to
learn how to write macro programs. That sounds like a lot of macros but
you only need a few of them and you gradually learn which ones work best
for your purposes.

When you join the forum and you are listed in the membership section
it will be possible for me to send you a private e-mail and we can
exchange e-mail addresses if you like. I will be happy to answer many
of your questions on private e-mails and you can also get a lot of
information from the forum. There are people on there that know much
more about the subject than I do.

Particularly your questions about the trouble with Vista speech
recognition. It sounds like there's something causing it to switch from
command mode to dictation mode so that it types out the command words
instead of acting on them. I have no idea what this is because I'm not
an expert on Vista speech, I don't use it. But it very well could be
something to do with your audio setup where the internal microphone is
misinterpreting some of the sounds.

I notice that the URL I sent did not come through properly so I
suggest you make a Google search for KnowBrainer and you'll find the
address of the forum.

There is also an excellent source of information right in the UK from
a certified Nuance vendor. He is a friend of Lunis and makes frequent
postings on the forum.

I'll look for you as soon as you join the KnowBrainer forum and send
you a private e-mail with my e-mail address.

Grant


PS. Please inform me of the name you use when you join the forum. My
name on KnowBrainer is the same as I use here, Grantx.


--
Grantx