(Msg. 17) Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:03 am
Post subject: Re: Windows Vista x64 searches 5 times longer than Windows XP! Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: microsoft>public>windows>64bit>general, others (more info?)
Even while accepting that other people have different experiences based on
what they customarily have need or desire to do, I have mine. It appears to
me that an effort is on-going to improve both the scope (where do you
search? How broadly do you set the parameters of the search?) and speed
(what methodology/algorithms do you use; do you keep an index of searches to
improve speed of later searches? Do you pre-index-if so, what parameters so
you set for that?). Please forgive my repetitiveness but I though it worth
reviewing.
Any time there is a change to the behavior of a tool, users are forced to
experience some-to-much re-familiarization time. Hopefully, most will find
the newly expanded abilities worth the admitted pain. Also, one hopes that
usability improves as development continues.
--
Tom
MSMVP 1998-2007
"Charlie Tame" <charlie.DeleteThis@tames.net> wrote in message
news:%23yFYTaNuIHA.4560@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Justin Martin [MSFT] wrote:
>>> I believe you are trying to say that the Vista search function is a
>>> hopeless waste of space. If we follow your suggestions we will know
>>> where everything is anyway, In XP *.mp3 found all the mp3s, in Vista it
>>> does not.
>>>
>>> You bet there are things that need answering.
>>
>> That's not what I'm trying to say at all. I now understand why many
>> people don't spend their time trying to be helpful in the newsgroups.
>>
>> You'll get people to be much more willing to try and assist and make
>> improvements in the product if you do more than just flame. If you
>> honestly are having a problem and would like help, please be descriptive
>> of the problems you're running into. For example:
>>
>> 1. Where/how are you initiating the search?
>> 2. Where are the files that aren't being found? Are they random or is it
>> a specific set of items that aren't coming back?
>> 3. Have you changed any of the default search or indexer settings?
>> etc.
>>
>> Justin
>
>
> Actually your presence here is most welcome, and I was being somewhat
> sarcastic.
>
> I know there are many settings and that indexing can be useful to some,
> however the situation seems to have been made quite confusing to many
> users.
>
> For example, I rarely "Search" for anything, when I do it probably takes
> the form of *.dll because I want to locate some file or other to work
> with. I don't really care if it takes 5 minutes to find, but I do want to
> be sure if it is there or not. What I do care about is that I have to wait
> 5 minutes EVERY time as Vista "Indexes" things at boot. Despite this time
> during which the disk drive is grinding away when I type *.dll it comes
> back with nothing. Even if the file is in plain sight on the desktop Vista
> does not find it. W2000 and XP used to just "Find" things, indexed or not.
>
> On the other hand if I want to find something on the Internet I use Google
> or similar.
>
> So my experience when first using Vista was with the default settings, and
> despite 5 minutes every boot and 5 minutes every search I could not be
> sure the file wasn't there, only that Vista wasn't locating it. Once I
> went to the drive properties and turned indexing off the boot process went
> back to a realistic time and Vista still couldn't find anything but
> waiting time was acceptable.
>
> So I guess the question is why change the "Expected" behavior and force
> the user to make changes he/she is not familiar with when it seems that
> what "Windows always does" was quite acceptable. I may well have missed
> the point somewhere, I just want to know where
(Msg. 18) Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Windows Vista x64 searches 5 times longer than Windows XP! Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
"Tom Ferguson" <tom.newsgroups DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eNq$fqiuIHA.5472@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> OK. You have a solution. Use it and worry not. <g> That's what we all do
> if we find a tool or feature or two we don't like. Use a work-around or
> another tool. It's difficult for one system to be all things to all
> people, in my view.
Luckily, our IT guys won't touch Vista, so search is not a problem at work.
I am penalized for trying to be on the leading edge of adopting Vista for
personal use. [I wanted to be a proponent of using Vista's search of file
tags on a special project at work -- a great solution to a particular
problem -- but there's no way I'm pushing for that pilot project using
Vista given how I've been treated by Microsoft on their failed Vista search.
Our IT manager won't let me call on behalf of the company about the search
problem because he doesn't want to talk to Microsoft AT ALL about Vista --
it's my fault I bought a personal copy, and Microsoft has treated me like
dirt as an individual on the flawed search on my Vista Ultimate.]
I worry about the future: I am also involved in aspects of technical
support at work and may need to search for certain kinds of files, which
means with Vista I will now need to take my own tools to every PC for
troubleshooting -- or talk users on the phone or E-mail into installing a
new tool before we can even look at certain problems. Some troubleshooting
using Vista will be a problem when files cannot be found because of Vista's
flawed search. I have explained this to Microsoft about how some scientific
files don't "obey" their rules, but Microsoft doesn't care.
Microsoft should have added a new feature, not removed an old reliable one.
> In any case, this topic has brought a light to bear on a high degree of
> frustration in some users. Hopefully, that will not be without effect.
But what good does bringing light do when Microsoft's arrogance and
condescension prevents them from caring enough to help customers get work
done? The flaws in Vista and the needless user interface changes in Office
2007 easily cost me a week of work last year (likely more). Why would
anyone want Vista/Office 2007 when Microsoft is hindering productivity and
provides NO SUPPORT when they screw things up?
Microsoft's attitude strongly says "we don't want customers" -- a bit like
IBM when I tried to buy OS/2 from them many years ago.
I have not considered Macs for a long time, but the arbitrary and
unnecessary differences Microsoft is imposing on customers with Vista and
Office 2007 make me really wonder if switching might be better. I truly
enjoy the PC Guy - Mac guy commercials, especially the recent one about PC
customers leaving and not coming back. Why should we tolerate the terrible
arrogance of Microsoft and all the wasted time they have caused with Vista?
The flawed Vista search has been the "deal breaker" for me. FRUSTRATION
levels are quite high when I cannot find old files, or even new ones, with
Vista's search, and Microsoft doesn't listen, doesn't care and doesn't fix
the problem.
(Msg. 19) Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Windows Vista x64 searches 5 times longer than Windows XP! Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
(Msg. 20) Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:39 am
Post subject: Re: Windows Vista x64 searches 5 times longer than Windows XP! Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
In article <uOddjlduIHA.1504.RemoveThis@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>,
Celegans.RemoveThis@nospam.nospam says...
> "Tom Ferguson" <tom.newsgroups.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:OIPkfmauIHA.1220@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> > Any time there is a change to the behavior of a tool, users are forced to
> > experience some-to-much re-familiarization time. Hopefully, most will find
> > the newly expanded abilities worth the admitted pain. Also, one hopes that
> > usability improves as development continues.
>
> Vista search simple DOES NOT WORK when searching for strings on my Vista
> Ultimate machine. I've seen it work on another Vista machine, but search
> does not work on my machine. I have given Microsoft an example of searching
> for six identical files with six different extensions. Vista can find three
> but is blind to the other three. Even "Advanced Search" and its checkbox
> "Include non-indexed, hidden, and system files (might be slow)" cannot find
> three of these six identical files.
You are not alone. Even with the so called new search
engine my vista premium fails to find a single mp3 file
on my C drive, this when searching without an index for
*.mp3. The search goes on for 10 minutes and finds
nothing, absolutely nothing. Index searching finds every
file in the index, but files in certain directories, as
you know are not indexed.
Agentransak finds 46 files in 2 seconds. Like you I am
responsible for mutliple computers in our office (20 to
be exact). Also, since I do some programing I frequently
store files in different locations. If I need to be sure
to find every file with a *.prg extension containing the
expression "Create array", I am not sure what Vista will
return.
I am suspicious that what we are seeing is an indexing
system designed for a future file system which failed to
materialize with Vista.
I also agree, that when you give users better tools you
don't break those that worked.
(Msg. 21) Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Windows Vista x64 searches 5 times longer than Windows XP! Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
I'll pass the feedback along to the design team. I feel the pain as well.
"R. C. White" wrote:
> Hi, Justin.
>
> Welcome to the newsgroup! ;<)
>
> > The progress bar was a design decision made by the program management
> > team.
> > It does not show progress,
>
> Well, it APPEARS to show progress. Where is there any indication to the
> user that it is showing anything other than progress?
>
> > but it does reflect that we're still performing
> > work.
>
> But there is NO feedback as to whether it might be finished - or give up -
> in another 10 seconds or that it might take another 10 hours - or 10 days.
> :>(
>
> There is no clue as to whether it is now searching in Drive C: or in Drive
> X: or even somewhere on the Internet maybe?
>
> > It was tweaked significantly during the different Betas and Release
> > Candidates until people were generally ok with it.
>
> I participated in the last year or more of the Vista beta; at least a
> half-dozen builds, both 32-bit and 64-bit. I recall significant
> improvements in some parts of Search, but NOT in this "progress bar" area.
> That feeling that it would never get to the Finish Line did not go away
> during the beta - or since.
>
> The non-productive and non-informative pulsing of that green bar gets to be
> INFURIATING!!! Doesn't anybody on the Microsoft Team understand that?
>
> Thanks for the tips about how to speed up the Search. My frustration,
> though, is not that the search takes so long, but that it NEVER gives up, or
> even pauses to take a breath, give me a progress report, and ask me if I'd
> like to trim my parameters or if I want it to just "press on!"
>
> > PS - I'm going to try to do a better job of popping into the newsgroup now
> > and then to see if there is anything that needs answering.
>
> Please do, Justin. You will, of course, get flamed by some immature
> readers. But you also should hear some legitimate complaints, questions,
> requests and suggestions that you will never get from anywhere else.
>
> RC
> --
> R. C. White, CPA
> San Marcos, TX
> rc.DeleteThis@grandecom.net
> Microsoft Windows MVP
> (Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)
>
> "Justin Martin [MSFT]" <JustinMartinMSFT.DeleteThis@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
> message news:89EA85CC-3690-49F0-A2F6-F1A56EF4266A@microsoft.com...
> > Microsoftie here > >
> > The progress bar was a design decision made by the program management
> > team.
> > It does not show progress, but it does reflect that we're still performing
> > work. It was tweaked significantly during the different Betas and Release
> > Candidates until people were generally ok with it.
> >
> > Searching in indexed locations should be fast. It should be even faster
> > with Window Search 4 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/940157) installed.
> > The
> > more locations on the disk you have indexed, the faster the searching of
> > these locations should be. Keep in mind that we don't index the entire
> > drive
> > on purpose, as the indexer wasn't designed to handle the load that is
> > associated with indexing directories like Windows or Program Files.
> >
> > Searching all of the Computer is a very costly operation, because a
> > majority
> > of the time is spent crawling the disk trying to find the items that
> > you're
> > looking for. The non-indexed search of Vista is slower than XP and other
> > engines by default, because we end up searching more properties. Also, we
> > perform our searches differently than most engines (word based, rather
> > than
> > character or regular expression based). This isn't an excuse, we should
> > still do a better job of being more efficient.
> >
> > Granted that it may be slower in some situations, there are things you can
> > do to improve performance of your searches.
> >
> > 1. Scope your search location. Only include the locations you think that
> > you may find the file you're looking for. This will obviously speed
> > things
> > up.
> > 2. Scope your search to only search for properties you care about. Use
> > either the Advanced Search Pane or directly use Advanced Query Syntax
> > (such
> > as name:foo, or author:bar). See
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa965711.aspx for more details.
> > The
> > syntax isn't perfect and there is a lot of work trying to keep the
> > behavior
> > of non-indexed searches to match the behavior of indexed searches (which
> > isn't perfect), even though it is two completely distinct search
> > providers.
> > 3. Add more locations of the files you care about to the index. When
> > searching non-indexed locations like Computer, we will leverage the
> > indexer
> > to return results for indexed locations on the system.
> > 4. Keep the "Search system folders" checkbox unchecked in the Search
> > Options, unless you're sure that's where you want to look. When this
> > option
> > is set, searching from c:\ will not search within system directories like
> > c:\windows and c:\program files.
> > 5. Don't use the "Include non-indexed, hidden and system files (might be
> > slow)" checkbox in the Advanced search box unless you have to. This
> > option
> > will not use the index at all and will perform a non-indexed search of all
> > locations and also look in system folders.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> > Justin
> >
> > PS - I'm going to try to do a better job of popping into the newsgroup now
> > and then to see if there is anything that needs answering.
>
(Msg. 22) Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Windows Vista x64 searches 5 times longer than Windows XP! Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
"GeraldF" wrote:
> You are not alone. Even with the so called new search
> engine my vista premium fails to find a single mp3 file
> on my C drive, this when searching without an index for
> *.mp3. The search goes on for 10 minutes and finds
> nothing, absolutely nothing. Index searching finds every
> file in the index, but files in certain directories, as
> you know are not indexed.
Searching C: for *.mp3 isn't finding files with the MP3 extension? Where
are the files that you're searching for? This shouldn't happen, and I've
never heard of this happening. More specifics would help narrow down the
cause.
> Agentransak finds 46 files in 2 seconds. Like you I am
> responsible for mutliple computers in our office (20 to
> be exact). Also, since I do some programing I frequently
> store files in different locations. If I need to be sure
> to find every file with a *.prg extension containing the
> expression "Create array", I am not sure what Vista will
> return.
We realize that reliability of the results and trusting that it is finding
everything that you're looking for is huge. Without it, we lose all
viability. The Windows Search 4 release (currently in Beta on download
center) is intended to speed up indexed queries and address indexing
reliability issues.
(Msg. 23) Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Windows Vista x64 searches 5 times longer than Windows XP! Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
> I know there are many settings and that indexing can be useful to some,
> however the situation seems to have been made quite confusing to many users.
>
> For example, I rarely "Search" for anything, when I do it probably takes
> the form of *.dll because I want to locate some file or other to work
> with. I don't really care if it takes 5 minutes to find, but I do want
> to be sure if it is there or not. What I do care about is that I have to
> wait 5 minutes EVERY time as Vista "Indexes" things at boot. Despite
> this time during which the disk drive is grinding away when I type *.dll
> it comes back with nothing. Even if the file is in plain sight on the
> desktop Vista does not find it. W2000 and XP used to just "Find" things,
> indexed or not.
All files that are within an indexed location (such as the desktop or user
profile) should be returned by the indexer. All other results are returned
by the GREP search engine. If the file is not in the index, it could be
either:
1. a reliability issue with the indexer. We're addressing many issues with
the Windows Search 4 release that is currently in Beta on download center.
2. there are certain items that we won't index. Please see
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/932989/en-us for more information. I realize
this is overly complicated and we're looking at simplifying the design.
> So my experience when first using Vista was with the default settings,
> and despite 5 minutes every boot and 5 minutes every search I could not
> be sure the file wasn't there, only that Vista wasn't locating it. Once
> I went to the drive properties and turned indexing off the boot process
> went back to a realistic time and Vista still couldn't find anything but
> waiting time was acceptable.
We're looking into issues causing slow boot/resume across the board.
> So I guess the question is why change the "Expected" behavior and force
> the user to make changes he/she is not familiar with when it seems that
> what "Windows always does" was quite acceptable. I may well have missed
> the point somewhere, I just want to know where
I firmly believe there is value-add for indexed search on the desktop. I
use it for email, files, and programs on a daily basis. I tend to use it
more as a "access my stuff quickly, regardless of where it is" rather than a
"i don't know where my files are, help me find them". That said, it is
unacceptable for us to break the latter scenario just to enable the former.
It sounds like this has happened in some cases, and if you have specific
qualms, please voice them as feedback for the design teams. Thanks!
(Msg. 24) Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:13 am
Post subject: Re: Windows Vista x64 searches 5 times longer than Windows XP! Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
Justin Martin [MSFT] wrote:
>> I know there are many settings and that indexing can be useful to some,
>> however the situation seems to have been made quite confusing to many users.
> All files that are within an indexed location (such as the desktop or user
> profile) should be returned by the indexer. All other results are returned
> by the GREP search engine. If the file is not in the index, it could be
> either:
<Snipped for brevity>
Thank you Justin. I am pleased that the situation is getting attention
because when people get replies in these groups that effectively say "It
is because you are stupid" the frustration reflects back on Microsoft,
never mind that the accusation did not come from Microsoft or anybody
working there.
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