restart numbering changes the style's format

Have a look at http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/ListRestartMethods.htm
for some ideas.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Barbara White" <bjw.RemoveThis@sei.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:uEnkn$%23iHHA.4248@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> The other thing that I'm curious about is this: No one has edited the
> templates to change the numbering scheme for any of the Styles. Given
> that, why would this reset-definition behavior suddenly start?
>
> (I'm posting this followup after looking through this group's archives
> and seeing older posts where others have experienced similar problems.
> Usually, the followups are to explain to the user how to set up
> numbering. Which then makes me wonder about why this behavior suddenly
> started--why it was that these numbered styles in the template worked
> for years but suddenly stopped working.)

Hi Barbara:

It's really difficult to explain why this happens. Or rather, *I* found it
difficult to understand the explanation!

Simplistically, you can say that while the "Formatting" is part of the
Paragraph Style, the "Numbering" is not. If you set the styles up
correctly, the numbering List Template is "Linked" to the style, but it is
not part of it.

What makes it difficult is that the tabs and indents in the numbering
override and conflict with the same settings in the paragraph style.

A document makes no further reference to the template after it has been
created. So it doesn't matter what happens in the template after the
document is created. UNLESS the document has "Automatically update styles
on open" turned on in the Tools>Templates and Add-ins dialog. If that is
turned on, each time the document is opened, all of the styles from the
template are copied into the document each time it is opened. But the
NUMBERING List Templates are NOT copied. So immediately, the association
between the Styles and the numbering is broken each time the document is
opened.

So that's the first thing to check: In Tools>Templates check that
"Automatically update styles ..." is NOT turned on in any document using
numbering.

The other thing is to check that that user is ACTUALLY using right-click to
restart the numbering. If they use Right-click>Bullets and Numbering, they
will not restart the old list, they will apply a new list. And the new list
will not be associated with the style.

You need also to check -- in the document, not the template -- that the link
between the Style and its numbering remains in place. It is all too easy
for an inexperienced user to do something that breaks that association. The
numbering can then be associated with a different style, the correct style
can pick up different numbering, or the correct numbering may not be
attached to a style at all. The link is very fragile: playing around in
Format>Bullets and Numbering can break it in a flash, without the user being
aware of that or even intending to do it.

Come back if you find this a bit cryptic: It took me a while to understand
it.

The person who specified this mechanism in Word seems to have not properly
understood how the various numbering types are actually used. That left the
software designer trying to do too many things with a single design. The
net result is that we have a fiendishly complex mechanism that works very
well but requires users to know some very complex stuff, and most don't want
to take the time to learn it.

Hope this helps

--

The question you are about to ask has probably already been answered at
http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name

"Barbara White" <bjw.DeleteThis@sei.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:uEnkn$%23iHHA.4248@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> The other thing that I'm curious about is this: No one has edited the
> templates to change the numbering scheme for any of the Styles. Given
> that, why would this reset-definition behavior suddenly start?
>
> (I'm posting this followup after looking through this group's archives and
> seeing older posts where others have experienced similar problems.
> Usually, the followups are to explain to the user how to set up numbering.
> Which then makes me wonder about why this behavior suddenly started--why
> it was that these numbered styles in the template worked for years but
> suddenly stopped working.)

I had just discovered this property of Automatically update styles...
and was going to suggest to my co-workers to use this ability to apply
a template instead of our old method (Going into Organizer and pulling
all the styles from the template in to the current document) as LONG
as they turned off Automatically update styles... before saving the
document.

Does bringing the styles in using the Organizer also break the
association between Styles and numbering? IE is the only way to get
numbering from a template into a new document to open the template and
then copy/paste data in and reformat it using the styles?

I'd appreciate any insights you might give on this as I am the local
"Word expert" and in charge of teaching my co-workers best practices
of working with Word. We use numbering a -lot- in our documents so we
run in to many of the common problems it seems.

Sarah Schreffler
Bellevue, WA

On May 1, 7:20 am, "John McGhie [MVP Word, Word Mac]"
<j... DeleteThis @mcghie.name> wrote:
> A document makes no further reference to the template after it has been
> created. So it doesn't matter what happens in the template after the
> document is created. UNLESS the document has "Automatically update styles
> on open" turned on in the Tools>Templates and Add-ins dialog. If that is
> turned on, each time the document is opened, all of the styles from the
> template are copied into the document each time it is opened. But the
> NUMBERING List Templates are NOT copied. So immediately, the association
> between the Styles and the numbering is broken each time the document is
> opened.
>
> So that's the first thing to check: In Tools>Templates check that
> "Automatically update styles ..." is NOT turned on in any document using
> numbering.
> --
>
> The question you are about to ask has probably already been answered athttp://www.word.mvps.org/
>
> Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.
>
> John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
> McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltdhttp://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
> Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:j...@mcghie.name

Hi Sarah:

Sadly, "Yes".

There was an old technique where if you selected some numbered styles in the
organiser, then copied THREE times (saying Yes to the overwrite prompt each
time) you would bring in the the Linked Styles on the second copy and the
List Template on the third.

I am not sure that it ever worked, but if it did, I think that it got broken
by the updates to try to overcome the "char char char" bug in Word 2002.

I suggest the following stratetgy:

1) Insist that all documents are created fresh from a correctly-formatted
template. That will ensure that the List Templates and the Styles remain
correctly attached in the produced document.

2) Use VBA to apply your styles. This ensures that each style is applied
to the entire paragraph, preventing the creation of Linked Styles that break
the numbering.

3) Code your VBA to check for the presence of the correct numbering when
applying each style, and to re-create and re-attach the List Template if it
is not there.

You can do "3" safely in Word 2002 and above, because it checks for unused
List Templates and deletes them from the document on Save. You cannot do
that with earlier versions because the List Templates will grow continuously
until they overflow Word's buffer and corrupt the document.

Let me know if you need any more help.

Cheers

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
http://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
Sydney, Australia. S33°53'34.20 E151°14'54.50
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name

"SSchreffler" <sarah.schreffler.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1179258336.403214.143050@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>I had just discovered this property of Automatically update styles...
> and was going to suggest to my co-workers to use this ability to apply
> a template instead of our old method (Going into Organizer and pulling
> all the styles from the template in to the current document) as LONG
> as they turned off Automatically update styles... before saving the
> document.
>
> Does bringing the styles in using the Organizer also break the
> association between Styles and numbering? IE is the only way to get
> numbering from a template into a new document to open the template and
> then copy/paste data in and reformat it using the styles?
>
> I'd appreciate any insights you might give on this as I am the local
> "Word expert" and in charge of teaching my co-workers best practices
> of working with Word. We use numbering a -lot- in our documents so we
> run in to many of the common problems it seems.
>
> Sarah Schreffler
> Bellevue, WA
>
> On May 1, 7:20 am, "John McGhie [MVP Word, Word Mac]"
> <j....DeleteThis@mcghie.name> wrote:
>> A document makes no further reference to the template after it has been
>> created. So it doesn't matter what happens in the template after the
>> document is created. UNLESS the document has "Automatically update
>> styles
>> on open" turned on in the Tools>Templates and Add-ins dialog. If that is
>> turned on, each time the document is opened, all of the styles from the
>> template are copied into the document each time it is opened. But the
>> NUMBERING List Templates are NOT copied. So immediately, the association
>> between the Styles and the numbering is broken each time the document is
>> opened.
>>
>> So that's the first thing to check: In Tools>Templates check that
>> "Automatically update styles ..." is NOT turned on in any document using
>> numbering.
>> --
>>
>> The question you are about to ask has probably already been answered
>> athttp://www.word.mvps.org/
>>
>> Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.
>>
>> John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer
>> McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltdhttp://jgmcghie.fastmail.com.au/
>> Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
>> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:j...@mcghie.name
>