Word 2007 Learning Curve

Paul

I agree: the current implementation makes it harder for all and I cannot see
what the long-term advantages are to anyone that the Ribbons are locked down
so tightly.

What I would like to see is the ordinary user being able to create their own
'Home' Ribbon that can be tied in with a template. On this ribbon, the user
can add whatever groups they want from any of the other standard ribbons and
remove/change the contents of these groups.

For example, my Home ribbon would remove the Clipboard group (a real waste
of screen space), remove much of the Font and Paragraph group tools (but
adding a few more useful tools) and thus making loads more space for styles.

Terry

"Paul Gauci" <PaulGauci.TakeThisOut@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:C26EECF4-4EA3-44D5-9457-FB86CE38FDC2@microsoft.com...
> OK - but how about the needs of companies (large and small) who use
> customised styles/templates/toolbars/icons etc to standardise the
> presentations of letters, reports, etc?
>
> For instance, when such companies work with outsiders (say, when they
> outsource), all they had to do with 2003 was to provide their
> sub-contractors
> with their customised templates/toolbars/icons etc and save considerable
> time
> and energy on post writing-up formatting.
>
> Also, freelancers who work/ed for different companies using their clients'
> customised templates/toolbars/icons can/could be very efficient when 2003
> customisations are/were well designed. It appears to me that they will
> have
> problems being as efficient with 2007.
>
> --
> Paul Gauci
>
>
> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
>
>> No, but that would be why customization would make it difficult to
>> support.
>>
>> --
>> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>> Words into Type
>> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>
>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng.TakeThisOut@po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:EF69B8E3-36A8-4550-A569-7681BBEE6817@microsoft.com...
>> >I see. So we dumb down Word to help the helpers?
>> >
>> > Terry
>> >
>> > "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill.TakeThisOut@mvps.org> wrote in message
>> > news:%23GyRmfjSIHA.4440@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> >> Because the help desk person is not looking at the same screen the
>> >> user
>> >> is, so the user is referring to buttons and menu items the IT person
>> >> may
>> >> not even be aware exist, much less have in his UI.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>> >> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>> >> Words into Type
>> >> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>> >>
>> >> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng.TakeThisOut@po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> news:4A6CDCD9-779C-4264-8BEF-5EC9DD32A17A@microsoft.com...
>> >>> Gordon
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm not sure why this should be a support nightmare. If you use
>> >>> roaming
>> >>> profiles, surely, the customisations stay with the user. So if I log
>> >>> into any computer on the network, I get My Profile with My Desktop
>> >>> displayed and in Word I will see all my toolbars as I want to use
>> >>> them.
>> >>> Why is that a support nightmare?
>> >>>
>> >>> Terry
>> >>>
>> >>> "Gordon" <gbplinux.TakeThisOut@gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>> >>> news:OGWaYUhSIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> >>>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng.TakeThisOut@po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:90BB1CBE-1740-44AC-803A-28B104641260@microsoft.com...
>> >>>>> In previous versions, I always modified the Toolbars. Many of the
>> >>>>> tools I never used (such as cut, copy, past, bold, italics
>> >>>>> underline,
>> >>>>> etc.) I always dragged off and added useful tools that were hidden
>> >>>>> (such as ParaPageBreakBefore, Doc Properties, File New... and
>> >>>>> custom
>> >>>>> macros, etc.).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I always like that there were always so many different ways to work
>> >>>>> in
>> >>>>> Word that allowed users to customize and work in a way that suited
>> >>>>> themselves and their principal tasks. To me, much of this choice
>> >>>>> seems
>> >>>>> to have been removed. I was privileged to be shown demos of the
>> >>>>> proposed Ribbon before it went beta and was enthusiastic as I could
>> >>>>> see that so many more commands could be made available for users,
>> >>>>> rather than having to dig deep to find the hidden nest of tools
>> >>>>> available. But I wasn't aware of how rigid the Ribbon was to be
>> >>>>> until
>> >>>>> beta testing started. I was deeply disappointed and I still am.
>> >>>>> And I
>> >>>>> will remain disappointed until the Ribbon is user customizable
>> >>>>> out-of-the-box.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Terry
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I hear what you say, but from a support perspective in a commercial
>> >>>> environment, a User customising ANYTHING on an individual basis
>> >>>> turns
>> >>>> into a support/helpdesk nightmare.....
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>

While I agree that a customizable ribbon or tab would be helpful, it has
been pointed out that you can create a specialize QAT for a specific
template. Don't think, however, that I am in any way defending the loss of
customizability. I haven't yet "upgraded" to Office 2007, but I'm going to
be one of the loudest whiners when I do, as I have highly customized my Word
2003 UI (with some customizations probably dating back to Word 2.0).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Terry Farrell" <mvpng.DeleteThis@po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
news:92DA4CE4-ED10-4910-939E-424F20E85FE6@microsoft.com...
> Paul
>
> I agree: the current implementation makes it harder for all and I cannot
> see what the long-term advantages are to anyone that the Ribbons are
> locked down so tightly.
>
> What I would like to see is the ordinary user being able to create their
> own 'Home' Ribbon that can be tied in with a template. On this ribbon, the
> user can add whatever groups they want from any of the other standard
> ribbons and remove/change the contents of these groups.
>
> For example, my Home ribbon would remove the Clipboard group (a real waste
> of screen space), remove much of the Font and Paragraph group tools (but
> adding a few more useful tools) and thus making loads more space for
> styles.
>
> Terry
>
> "Paul Gauci" <PaulGauci.DeleteThis@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:C26EECF4-4EA3-44D5-9457-FB86CE38FDC2@microsoft.com...
>> OK - but how about the needs of companies (large and small) who use
>> customised styles/templates/toolbars/icons etc to standardise the
>> presentations of letters, reports, etc?
>>
>> For instance, when such companies work with outsiders (say, when they
>> outsource), all they had to do with 2003 was to provide their
>> sub-contractors
>> with their customised templates/toolbars/icons etc and save considerable
>> time
>> and energy on post writing-up formatting.
>>
>> Also, freelancers who work/ed for different companies using their
>> clients'
>> customised templates/toolbars/icons can/could be very efficient when 2003
>> customisations are/were well designed. It appears to me that they will
>> have
>> problems being as efficient with 2007.
>>
>> --
>> Paul Gauci
>>
>>
>> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
>>
>>> No, but that would be why customization would make it difficult to
>>> support.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>> Words into Type
>>> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>>
>>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng.DeleteThis@po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:EF69B8E3-36A8-4550-A569-7681BBEE6817@microsoft.com...
>>> >I see. So we dumb down Word to help the helpers?
>>> >
>>> > Terry
>>> >
>>> > "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill.DeleteThis@mvps.org> wrote in message
>>> > news:%23GyRmfjSIHA.4440@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> >> Because the help desk person is not looking at the same screen the
>>> >> user
>>> >> is, so the user is referring to buttons and menu items the IT person
>>> >> may
>>> >> not even be aware exist, much less have in his UI.
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>> >> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>> >> Words into Type
>>> >> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>> >>
>>> >> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng.DeleteThis@po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> >> news:4A6CDCD9-779C-4264-8BEF-5EC9DD32A17A@microsoft.com...
>>> >>> Gordon
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'm not sure why this should be a support nightmare. If you use
>>> >>> roaming
>>> >>> profiles, surely, the customisations stay with the user. So if I log
>>> >>> into any computer on the network, I get My Profile with My Desktop
>>> >>> displayed and in Word I will see all my toolbars as I want to use
>>> >>> them.
>>> >>> Why is that a support nightmare?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Terry
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Gordon" <gbplinux.DeleteThis@gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>> >>> news:OGWaYUhSIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> >>>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng.DeleteThis@po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> >>>> news:90BB1CBE-1740-44AC-803A-28B104641260@microsoft.com...
>>> >>>>> In previous versions, I always modified the Toolbars. Many of the
>>> >>>>> tools I never used (such as cut, copy, past, bold, italics
>>> >>>>> underline,
>>> >>>>> etc.) I always dragged off and added useful tools that were hidden
>>> >>>>> (such as ParaPageBreakBefore, Doc Properties, File New... and
>>> >>>>> custom
>>> >>>>> macros, etc.).
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I always like that there were always so many different ways to
>>> >>>>> work in
>>> >>>>> Word that allowed users to customize and work in a way that suited
>>> >>>>> themselves and their principal tasks. To me, much of this choice
>>> >>>>> seems
>>> >>>>> to have been removed. I was privileged to be shown demos of the
>>> >>>>> proposed Ribbon before it went beta and was enthusiastic as I
>>> >>>>> could
>>> >>>>> see that so many more commands could be made available for users,
>>> >>>>> rather than having to dig deep to find the hidden nest of tools
>>> >>>>> available. But I wasn't aware of how rigid the Ribbon was to be
>>> >>>>> until
>>> >>>>> beta testing started. I was deeply disappointed and I still am.
>>> >>>>> And I
>>> >>>>> will remain disappointed until the Ribbon is user customizable
>>> >>>>> out-of-the-box.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Terry
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I hear what you say, but from a support perspective in a commercial
>>> >>>> environment, a User customising ANYTHING on an individual basis
>>> >>>> turns
>>> >>>> into a support/helpdesk nightmare.....
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

Just a couple more observations in the mix:

The "Ribbons are locked down" statement needs qualification. The
built-in Ribbon groups aren't customizable, but it _is_ possible to
remove any/all built-in groups and replace them with customized groups
that might be either slight modifications of the built-ins or
completely different. To do this, though, you need to get somewhat
familiar with RibbonX, which is what Patrick Schmid tries to do at
http://www.pschmid.net/office2007/ribbonx.

Yes, this is harder than customizing Word 2003 and earlier, and thus
not end-user-friendly. I suspect that's intentional, at the request of
the aforementioned large companies. They can afford to have someone
learn RibbonX, create customized templates for their needs, and have
everyone in the company forced to use the same customizations
(including IT support).

Eventually someone will come up with an end-user tool that makes
Ribbon changes easier. Patrick's RibbonCustomizer is close, but still
not as easy as many would like. Probably it will have to wait until MS
fixes some of the bugs and limitations in RibbonX itself.

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:23:50 -0600, "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
<sbarnhill RemoveThis @mvps.org> wrote:

>While I agree that a customizable ribbon or tab would be helpful, it has
>been pointed out that you can create a specialize QAT for a specific
>template. Don't think, however, that I am in any way defending the loss of
>customizability. I haven't yet "upgraded" to Office 2007, but I'm going to
>be one of the loudest whiners when I do, as I have highly customized my Word
>2003 UI (with some customizations probably dating back to Word 2.0).
>
>--
>Suzanne S. Barnhill
>Microsoft MVP (Word)
>Words into Type
>Fairhope, Alabama USA
>
>"Terry Farrell" <mvpng RemoveThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:92DA4CE4-ED10-4910-939E-424F20E85FE6@microsoft.com...
>> Paul
>>
>> I agree: the current implementation makes it harder for all and I cannot
>> see what the long-term advantages are to anyone that the Ribbons are
>> locked down so tightly.
>>
>> What I would like to see is the ordinary user being able to create their
>> own 'Home' Ribbon that can be tied in with a template. On this ribbon, the
>> user can add whatever groups they want from any of the other standard
>> ribbons and remove/change the contents of these groups.
>>
>> For example, my Home ribbon would remove the Clipboard group (a real waste
>> of screen space), remove much of the Font and Paragraph group tools (but
>> adding a few more useful tools) and thus making loads more space for
>> styles.
>>
>> Terry
>>
>> "Paul Gauci" <PaulGauci RemoveThis @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:C26EECF4-4EA3-44D5-9457-FB86CE38FDC2@microsoft.com...
>>> OK - but how about the needs of companies (large and small) who use
>>> customised styles/templates/toolbars/icons etc to standardise the
>>> presentations of letters, reports, etc?
>>>
>>> For instance, when such companies work with outsiders (say, when they
>>> outsource), all they had to do with 2003 was to provide their
>>> sub-contractors
>>> with their customised templates/toolbars/icons etc and save considerable
>>> time
>>> and energy on post writing-up formatting.
>>>
>>> Also, freelancers who work/ed for different companies using their
>>> clients'
>>> customised templates/toolbars/icons can/could be very efficient when 2003
>>> customisations are/were well designed. It appears to me that they will
>>> have
>>> problems being as efficient with 2007.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul Gauci
>>>
>>>
>>> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, but that would be why customization would make it difficult to
>>>> support.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>>> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>>> Words into Type
>>>> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>>>
>>>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng RemoveThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:EF69B8E3-36A8-4550-A569-7681BBEE6817@microsoft.com...
>>>> >I see. So we dumb down Word to help the helpers?
>>>> >
>>>> > Terry
>>>> >
>>>> > "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill RemoveThis @mvps.org> wrote in message
>>>> > news:%23GyRmfjSIHA.4440@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>> >> Because the help desk person is not looking at the same screen the
>>>> >> user
>>>> >> is, so the user is referring to buttons and menu items the IT person
>>>> >> may
>>>> >> not even be aware exist, much less have in his UI.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>>> >> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>>> >> Words into Type
>>>> >> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng RemoveThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> >> news:4A6CDCD9-779C-4264-8BEF-5EC9DD32A17A@microsoft.com...
>>>> >>> Gordon
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I'm not sure why this should be a support nightmare. If you use
>>>> >>> roaming
>>>> >>> profiles, surely, the customisations stay with the user. So if I log
>>>> >>> into any computer on the network, I get My Profile with My Desktop
>>>> >>> displayed and in Word I will see all my toolbars as I want to use
>>>> >>> them.
>>>> >>> Why is that a support nightmare?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Terry
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> "Gordon" <gbplinux RemoveThis @gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> >>> news:OGWaYUhSIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>> >>>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng RemoveThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> >>>> news:90BB1CBE-1740-44AC-803A-28B104641260@microsoft.com...
>>>> >>>>> In previous versions, I always modified the Toolbars. Many of the
>>>> >>>>> tools I never used (such as cut, copy, past, bold, italics
>>>> >>>>> underline,
>>>> >>>>> etc.) I always dragged off and added useful tools that were hidden
>>>> >>>>> (such as ParaPageBreakBefore, Doc Properties, File New... and
>>>> >>>>> custom
>>>> >>>>> macros, etc.).
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I always like that there were always so many different ways to
>>>> >>>>> work in
>>>> >>>>> Word that allowed users to customize and work in a way that suited
>>>> >>>>> themselves and their principal tasks. To me, much of this choice
>>>> >>>>> seems
>>>> >>>>> to have been removed. I was privileged to be shown demos of the
>>>> >>>>> proposed Ribbon before it went beta and was enthusiastic as I
>>>> >>>>> could
>>>> >>>>> see that so many more commands could be made available for users,
>>>> >>>>> rather than having to dig deep to find the hidden nest of tools
>>>> >>>>> available. But I wasn't aware of how rigid the Ribbon was to be
>>>> >>>>> until
>>>> >>>>> beta testing started. I was deeply disappointed and I still am.
>>>> >>>>> And I
>>>> >>>>> will remain disappointed until the Ribbon is user customizable
>>>> >>>>> out-of-the-box.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Terry
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I hear what you say, but from a support perspective in a commercial
>>>> >>>> environment, a User customising ANYTHING on an individual basis
>>>> >>>> turns
>>>> >>>> into a support/helpdesk nightmare.....
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>

--
Regards,
Jay Freedman
Microsoft Word MVP FAQ: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.

I suspect that if toolbar/menu customization had been possible only through
VBA in the past, we'd hear a lot less moaning about the need to learn
RibbonX for Word 2007 customization.

The real problem is that MS depended too much on SQM data that suggested
users never customized the UI, overlooking the fact that (a) UI
customization, if captured at all by CEIP (and they weren't very confident
about that), would be captured only once, and that existing customizations
(created before Word 2002/2003) would not be represented at all. This led
the developers to believe that "users never customize the UI," which may
still be true for the majority (especially the large portion whose UI is
locked down by IT), but they overlooked a large and vocal minority who do
customize.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Jay Freedman" <jay.freedman DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
news:o1pfn31aore6qnu135v2fm4rm3r1al5u3g@4ax.com...
> Just a couple more observations in the mix:
>
> The "Ribbons are locked down" statement needs qualification. The
> built-in Ribbon groups aren't customizable, but it _is_ possible to
> remove any/all built-in groups and replace them with customized groups
> that might be either slight modifications of the built-ins or
> completely different. To do this, though, you need to get somewhat
> familiar with RibbonX, which is what Patrick Schmid tries to do at
> http://www.pschmid.net/office2007/ribbonx.
>
> Yes, this is harder than customizing Word 2003 and earlier, and thus
> not end-user-friendly. I suspect that's intentional, at the request of
> the aforementioned large companies. They can afford to have someone
> learn RibbonX, create customized templates for their needs, and have
> everyone in the company forced to use the same customizations
> (including IT support).
>
> Eventually someone will come up with an end-user tool that makes
> Ribbon changes easier. Patrick's RibbonCustomizer is close, but still
> not as easy as many would like. Probably it will have to wait until MS
> fixes some of the bugs and limitations in RibbonX itself.
>
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:23:50 -0600, "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
> <sbarnhill DeleteThis @mvps.org> wrote:
>
>>While I agree that a customizable ribbon or tab would be helpful, it has
>>been pointed out that you can create a specialize QAT for a specific
>>template. Don't think, however, that I am in any way defending the loss of
>>customizability. I haven't yet "upgraded" to Office 2007, but I'm going to
>>be one of the loudest whiners when I do, as I have highly customized my
>>Word
>>2003 UI (with some customizations probably dating back to Word 2.0).
>>
>>--
>>Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>Words into Type
>>Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>
>>"Terry Farrell" <mvpng DeleteThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:92DA4CE4-ED10-4910-939E-424F20E85FE6@microsoft.com...
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> I agree: the current implementation makes it harder for all and I cannot
>>> see what the long-term advantages are to anyone that the Ribbons are
>>> locked down so tightly.
>>>
>>> What I would like to see is the ordinary user being able to create their
>>> own 'Home' Ribbon that can be tied in with a template. On this ribbon,
>>> the
>>> user can add whatever groups they want from any of the other standard
>>> ribbons and remove/change the contents of these groups.
>>>
>>> For example, my Home ribbon would remove the Clipboard group (a real
>>> waste
>>> of screen space), remove much of the Font and Paragraph group tools (but
>>> adding a few more useful tools) and thus making loads more space for
>>> styles.
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> "Paul Gauci" <PaulGauci DeleteThis @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>> news:C26EECF4-4EA3-44D5-9457-FB86CE38FDC2@microsoft.com...
>>>> OK - but how about the needs of companies (large and small) who use
>>>> customised styles/templates/toolbars/icons etc to standardise the
>>>> presentations of letters, reports, etc?
>>>>
>>>> For instance, when such companies work with outsiders (say, when they
>>>> outsource), all they had to do with 2003 was to provide their
>>>> sub-contractors
>>>> with their customised templates/toolbars/icons etc and save
>>>> considerable
>>>> time
>>>> and energy on post writing-up formatting.
>>>>
>>>> Also, freelancers who work/ed for different companies using their
>>>> clients'
>>>> customised templates/toolbars/icons can/could be very efficient when
>>>> 2003
>>>> customisations are/were well designed. It appears to me that they will
>>>> have
>>>> problems being as efficient with 2007.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Paul Gauci
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, but that would be why customization would make it difficult to
>>>>> support.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>>>> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>>>> Words into Type
>>>>> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>>>>
>>>>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng DeleteThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:EF69B8E3-36A8-4550-A569-7681BBEE6817@microsoft.com...
>>>>> >I see. So we dumb down Word to help the helpers?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Terry
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill DeleteThis @mvps.org> wrote in message
>>>>> > news:%23GyRmfjSIHA.4440@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>> >> Because the help desk person is not looking at the same screen the
>>>>> >> user
>>>>> >> is, so the user is referring to buttons and menu items the IT
>>>>> >> person
>>>>> >> may
>>>>> >> not even be aware exist, much less have in his UI.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>>>> >> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>>>> >> Words into Type
>>>>> >> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng DeleteThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> >> news:4A6CDCD9-779C-4264-8BEF-5EC9DD32A17A@microsoft.com...
>>>>> >>> Gordon
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I'm not sure why this should be a support nightmare. If you use
>>>>> >>> roaming
>>>>> >>> profiles, surely, the customisations stay with the user. So if I
>>>>> >>> log
>>>>> >>> into any computer on the network, I get My Profile with My Desktop
>>>>> >>> displayed and in Word I will see all my toolbars as I want to use
>>>>> >>> them.
>>>>> >>> Why is that a support nightmare?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Terry
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> "Gordon" <gbplinux DeleteThis @gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> >>> news:OGWaYUhSIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>> >>>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng DeleteThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> >>>> news:90BB1CBE-1740-44AC-803A-28B104641260@microsoft.com...
>>>>> >>>>> In previous versions, I always modified the Toolbars. Many of
>>>>> >>>>> the
>>>>> >>>>> tools I never used (such as cut, copy, past, bold, italics
>>>>> >>>>> underline,
>>>>> >>>>> etc.) I always dragged off and added useful tools that were
>>>>> >>>>> hidden
>>>>> >>>>> (such as ParaPageBreakBefore, Doc Properties, File New... and
>>>>> >>>>> custom
>>>>> >>>>> macros, etc.).
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I always like that there were always so many different ways to
>>>>> >>>>> work in
>>>>> >>>>> Word that allowed users to customize and work in a way that
>>>>> >>>>> suited
>>>>> >>>>> themselves and their principal tasks. To me, much of this choice
>>>>> >>>>> seems
>>>>> >>>>> to have been removed. I was privileged to be shown demos of the
>>>>> >>>>> proposed Ribbon before it went beta and was enthusiastic as I
>>>>> >>>>> could
>>>>> >>>>> see that so many more commands could be made available for
>>>>> >>>>> users,
>>>>> >>>>> rather than having to dig deep to find the hidden nest of tools
>>>>> >>>>> available. But I wasn't aware of how rigid the Ribbon was to be
>>>>> >>>>> until
>>>>> >>>>> beta testing started. I was deeply disappointed and I still am.
>>>>> >>>>> And I
>>>>> >>>>> will remain disappointed until the Ribbon is user customizable
>>>>> >>>>> out-of-the-box.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Terry
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I hear what you say, but from a support perspective in a
>>>>> >>>> commercial
>>>>> >>>> environment, a User customising ANYTHING on an individual basis
>>>>> >>>> turns
>>>>> >>>> into a support/helpdesk nightmare.....
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Jay Freedman
> Microsoft Word MVP FAQ: http://word.mvps.org
> Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup
> so all may benefit.

I asked about SQM in regards to how they ascertained users didn't use custom
toolbars and such and never really got an answer. I've discovered long ago
they key to obtain the answer you are seeking lies in "how" you ask your
question. So I kept asking essentially the same question but a little
differently each time. I finally asked the *right* question and found CEIP
doesn't record programmatic actions, only "user clicks". From that I
surmised add-ins/global templates that contain customized toolbars weren't
recorded. And, as you noted, if in Word 2002 you already customized your
toolbars for Normal.dot and simply used it for Word 2003 then your
customizations wouldn't be recorded since they were already present. All
provided, of course, if you even opted in to CEIP. I suspect those users who
are knowledgeable enough to customize their toolbars are also those who
would refrain from opting in. (I know I didn't opt in initially.)

BUT, I also know that in corporate environments and help desk situations,
trying to help a user over the phone or in email isn't easy to begin with.
Combine that with nonstandard toolbars/menus and that makes things even more
difficult. In this scenario I do understand the desire for a command to
always be present in a specific place.

Another aspect to consider is while it was easy to customize the
menus/toolbars in the previous versions, if you're an add-in developer you
can really mess things up! I think of the countless questions we encounter
about missing menus/menu items (not all of them can be attributed to user
error), menus that didn't open when clicked, the overpopulation of menu
items, the prompt to save Normal.dot each time you exit Word, the lack of
the prompt (in the case of the Adobe add-in which simply discarded all
customizations made to Normal.dot), and so on. I forget what the ratio is
for each question asked what the number of others with the same question is
but I recall it's quite a bit. The number of users encountering problems
that stem from the same exact issue (primarily add-ins) indicate there is
indeed a problem that needed fixing. So how does MS go about fixing it?? Why
not redesign of the menus/toolbars which also enables the ability to set
specific standards. Doing so forces developers into using a specific
standard for UI customizations and that's not necessarily a "bad thing".

For the last year or so I've been doing numerous presentations on Office
2007 and have the opportunity to talk with a LOT of users. The majority used
the Office apps in the past and they ranged from average users to advanced
users. What I found was an overwhelming number were thrilled with QAT
customizations. They love the ease in simply right-clicking to add or remove
a command/group. To be perfectly honest, I'm digging the ease in customizing
the QAT too. Basically what I have is the first half looks a lot like the
old Standard toolbar (New, Open, Save, Close, Print, Print Preview, Cut,
Copy, Paste, Undo, Redo, along with groups of commands I frequently use,
such as the Font group, Paragraph group, Styles group, and Page Setup group.
The rest changes depending on the task at hand. My Ribbon is usually
minimized and seldom used. I tend to treat it as my "pool" of commands for
quickly adding to my QAT. I also have a few templates that are more
task-oriented than those used for formatting/boilerplate. All they contain
is a customized QAT. So if I'm creating a I'll use my Mail Merge template.
If creating a form I'll use my Forms template. That way I have the tools I
frequently use at my fingertips simply by creating new document.

I think the key to the new UI involves a bit of letting go of the old ways
(IOW, don't attempt to force Word 2007 to work exactly like previous
versions) and adapting new ways, which, for me, have actually been more
efficient.

Please post all follow-up questions to the newsgroup. Requests for
assistance by email cannot be acknowledged.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP

Coauthor of Word 2007 Inside Out:
http://www.microsoft.com/MSPress/books/9801.aspx#AboutTheBook

Word FAQ: http://mvps.org/word
TechTrax eZine: http://mousetrax.com/techtrax/
MVP FAQ site: http://mvps.org/

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill RemoveThis @mvps.org> wrote in message
news:OcC%235uxSIHA.5360@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
> The real problem is that MS depended too much on SQM data that suggested
> users never customized the UI, overlooking the fact that (a) UI
> customization, if captured at all by CEIP (and they weren't very confident
> about that), would be captured only once, and that existing customizations
> (created before Word 2002/2003) would not be represented at all. This led
> the developers to believe that "users never customize the UI," which may
> still be true for the majority (especially the large portion whose UI is
> locked down by IT), but they overlooked a large and vocal minority who do
> customize.
>
> --
> Suzanne S. Barnhill
> Microsoft MVP (Word)
> Words into Type
> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>
> "Jay Freedman" <jay.freedman RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:o1pfn31aore6qnu135v2fm4rm3r1al5u3g@4ax.com...
>> Just a couple more observations in the mix:
>>
>> The "Ribbons are locked down" statement needs qualification. The
>> built-in Ribbon groups aren't customizable, but it _is_ possible to
>> remove any/all built-in groups and replace them with customized groups
>> that might be either slight modifications of the built-ins or
>> completely different. To do this, though, you need to get somewhat
>> familiar with RibbonX, which is what Patrick Schmid tries to do at
>> http://www.pschmid.net/office2007/ribbonx.
>>
>> Yes, this is harder than customizing Word 2003 and earlier, and thus
>> not end-user-friendly. I suspect that's intentional, at the request of
>> the aforementioned large companies. They can afford to have someone
>> learn RibbonX, create customized templates for their needs, and have
>> everyone in the company forced to use the same customizations
>> (including IT support).
>>
>> Eventually someone will come up with an end-user tool that makes
>> Ribbon changes easier. Patrick's RibbonCustomizer is close, but still
>> not as easy as many would like. Probably it will have to wait until MS
>> fixes some of the bugs and limitations in RibbonX itself.
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:23:50 -0600, "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
>> <sbarnhill RemoveThis @mvps.org> wrote:
>>
>>>While I agree that a customizable ribbon or tab would be helpful, it has
>>>been pointed out that you can create a specialize QAT for a specific
>>>template. Don't think, however, that I am in any way defending the loss
>>>of
>>>customizability. I haven't yet "upgraded" to Office 2007, but I'm going
>>>to
>>>be one of the loudest whiners when I do, as I have highly customized my
>>>Word
>>>2003 UI (with some customizations probably dating back to Word 2.0).
>>>
>>>--
>>>Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>>Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>>Words into Type
>>>Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>>
>>>"Terry Farrell" <mvpng RemoveThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:92DA4CE4-ED10-4910-939E-424F20E85FE6@microsoft.com...
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> I agree: the current implementation makes it harder for all and I
>>>> cannot
>>>> see what the long-term advantages are to anyone that the Ribbons are
>>>> locked down so tightly.
>>>>
>>>> What I would like to see is the ordinary user being able to create
>>>> their
>>>> own 'Home' Ribbon that can be tied in with a template. On this ribbon,
>>>> the
>>>> user can add whatever groups they want from any of the other standard
>>>> ribbons and remove/change the contents of these groups.
>>>>
>>>> For example, my Home ribbon would remove the Clipboard group (a real
>>>> waste
>>>> of screen space), remove much of the Font and Paragraph group tools
>>>> (but
>>>> adding a few more useful tools) and thus making loads more space for
>>>> styles.
>>>>
>>>> Terry
>>>>
>>>> "Paul Gauci" <PaulGauci RemoveThis @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:C26EECF4-4EA3-44D5-9457-FB86CE38FDC2@microsoft.com...
>>>>> OK - but how about the needs of companies (large and small) who use
>>>>> customised styles/templates/toolbars/icons etc to standardise the
>>>>> presentations of letters, reports, etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> For instance, when such companies work with outsiders (say, when they
>>>>> outsource), all they had to do with 2003 was to provide their
>>>>> sub-contractors
>>>>> with their customised templates/toolbars/icons etc and save
>>>>> considerable
>>>>> time
>>>>> and energy on post writing-up formatting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, freelancers who work/ed for different companies using their
>>>>> clients'
>>>>> customised templates/toolbars/icons can/could be very efficient when
>>>>> 2003
>>>>> customisations are/were well designed. It appears to me that they will
>>>>> have
>>>>> problems being as efficient with 2007.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Paul Gauci
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, but that would be why customization would make it difficult to
>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>>>>> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>>>>> Words into Type
>>>>>> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng RemoveThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:EF69B8E3-36A8-4550-A569-7681BBEE6817@microsoft.com...
>>>>>> >I see. So we dumb down Word to help the helpers?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Terry
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill RemoveThis @mvps.org> wrote in message
>>>>>> > news:%23GyRmfjSIHA.4440@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> >> Because the help desk person is not looking at the same screen the
>>>>>> >> user
>>>>>> >> is, so the user is referring to buttons and menu items the IT
>>>>>> >> person
>>>>>> >> may
>>>>>> >> not even be aware exist, much less have in his UI.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>> >> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>>>>> >> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>>>>> >> Words into Type
>>>>>> >> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng RemoveThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>> >> news:4A6CDCD9-779C-4264-8BEF-5EC9DD32A17A@microsoft.com...
>>>>>> >>> Gordon
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I'm not sure why this should be a support nightmare. If you use
>>>>>> >>> roaming
>>>>>> >>> profiles, surely, the customisations stay with the user. So if I
>>>>>> >>> log
>>>>>> >>> into any computer on the network, I get My Profile with My
>>>>>> >>> Desktop
>>>>>> >>> displayed and in Word I will see all my toolbars as I want to use
>>>>>> >>> them.
>>>>>> >>> Why is that a support nightmare?
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Terry
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> "Gordon" <gbplinux RemoveThis @gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>>> >>> news:OGWaYUhSIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> >>>> "Terry Farrell" <mvpng RemoveThis @po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>> >>>> news:90BB1CBE-1740-44AC-803A-28B104641260@microsoft.com...
>>>>>> >>>>> In previous versions, I always modified the Toolbars. Many of
>>>>>> >>>>> the
>>>>>> >>>>> tools I never used (such as cut, copy, past, bold, italics
>>>>>> >>>>> underline,
>>>>>> >>>>> etc.) I always dragged off and added useful tools that were
>>>>>> >>>>> hidden
>>>>>> >>>>> (such as ParaPageBreakBefore, Doc Properties, File New... and
>>>>>> >>>>> custom
>>>>>> >>>>> macros, etc.).
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I always like that there were always so many different ways to
>>>>>> >>>>> work in
>>>>>> >>>>> Word that allowed users to customize and work in a way that
>>>>>> >>>>> suited
>>>>>> >>>>> themselves and their principal tasks. To me, much of this
>>>>>> >>>>> choice
>>>>>> >>>>> seems
>>>>>> >>>>> to have been removed. I was privileged to be shown demos of the
>>>>>> >>>>> proposed Ribbon before it went beta and was enthusiastic as I
>>>>>> >>>>> could
>>>>>> >>>>> see that so many more commands could be made available for
>>>>>> >>>>> users,
>>>>>> >>>>> rather than having to dig deep to find the hidden nest of tools
>>>>>> >>>>> available. But I wasn't aware of how rigid the Ribbon was to be
>>>>>> >>>>> until
>>>>>> >>>>> beta testing started. I was deeply disappointed and I still am.
>>>>>> >>>>> And I
>>>>>> >>>>> will remain disappointed until the Ribbon is user customizable
>>>>>> >>>>> out-of-the-box.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Terry
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> I hear what you say, but from a support perspective in a
>>>>>> >>>> commercial
>>>>>> >>>> environment, a User customising ANYTHING on an individual basis
>>>>>> >>>> turns
>>>>>> >>>> into a support/helpdesk nightmare.....
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Jay Freedman
>> Microsoft Word MVP FAQ: http://word.mvps.org
>> Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup
>> so all may benefit.
>
>

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 19:22:11 -0600, "Beth Melton" <bmelton.TakeThisOut@mvps.org>
wrote:

>I asked about SQM in regards to how they ascertained users didn't use custom
>toolbars and such and never really got an answer. I've discovered long ago
>they key to obtain the answer you are seeking lies in "how" you ask your
>question. So I kept asking essentially the same question but a little
>differently each time. I finally asked the *right* question and found CEIP
>doesn't record programmatic actions, only "user clicks". From that I
>surmised add-ins/global templates that contain customized toolbars weren't
>recorded. And, as you noted, if in Word 2002 you already customized your
>toolbars for Normal.dot and simply used it for Word 2003 then your
>customizations wouldn't be recorded since they were already present. All
>provided, of course, if you even opted in to CEIP. I suspect those users who
>are knowledgeable enough to customize their toolbars are also those who
>would refrain from opting in. (I know I didn't opt in initially.)

Besides that, there's the argument that Jonathan West has been
pressing for lo these many months, that one developer can make a
template containing customizations and macros that are then used by
hundreds or thousands of end users. SQM doesn't capture any of that.

>BUT, I also know that in corporate environments and help desk situations,
>trying to help a user over the phone or in email isn't easy to begin with.
>Combine that with nonstandard toolbars/menus and that makes things even more
>difficult. In this scenario I do understand the desire for a command to
>always be present in a specific place.
>
>Another aspect to consider is while it was easy to customize the
>menus/toolbars in the previous versions, if you're an add-in developer you
>can really mess things up! I think of the countless questions we encounter
>about missing menus/menu items (not all of them can be attributed to user
>error), menus that didn't open when clicked, the overpopulation of menu
>items, the prompt to save Normal.dot each time you exit Word, the lack of
>the prompt (in the case of the Adobe add-in which simply discarded all
>customizations made to Normal.dot), and so on. I forget what the ratio is
>for each question asked what the number of others with the same question is
>but I recall it's quite a bit. The number of users encountering problems
>that stem from the same exact issue (primarily add-ins) indicate there is
>indeed a problem that needed fixing. So how does MS go about fixing it?? Why
>not redesign of the menus/toolbars which also enables the ability to set
>specific standards. Doing so forces developers into using a specific
>standard for UI customizations and that's not necessarily a "bad thing".

Agreed that enforcing a standard for UI customizations isn't a "bad
thing". But according to Jensen that consideration was secondary to
the overload of commands that would have made the menu/toolbar
paradigm unworkable. I'm not sure I completely buy that for 2007, but
I think the feeling was that they'd get the pain out of the way this
time so people will accept it better in the next version.

>For the last year or so I've been doing numerous presentations on Office
>2007 and have the opportunity to talk with a LOT of users. The majority used
>the Office apps in the past and they ranged from average users to advanced
>users. What I found was an overwhelming number were thrilled with QAT
>customizations. They love the ease in simply right-clicking to add or remove
>a command/group. To be perfectly honest, I'm digging the ease in customizing
>the QAT too. Basically what I have is the first half looks a lot like the
>old Standard toolbar (New, Open, Save, Close, Print, Print Preview, Cut,
>Copy, Paste, Undo, Redo, along with groups of commands I frequently use,
>such as the Font group, Paragraph group, Styles group, and Page Setup group.
>The rest changes depending on the task at hand. My Ribbon is usually
>minimized and seldom used. I tend to treat it as my "pool" of commands for
>quickly adding to my QAT. I also have a few templates that are more
>task-oriented than those used for formatting/boilerplate. All they contain
>is a customized QAT. So if I'm creating a I'll use my Mail Merge template.
>If creating a form I'll use my Forms template. That way I have the tools I
>frequently use at my fingertips simply by creating new document.

Two things that would make the QAT-primary approach easier to accept:
distinctive icons or text for all QAT buttons (no more anonymous green
circles), and the ability to use custom icons made from arbitrary
bitmaps (preferably for any command, but at least for macros).

>I think the key to the new UI involves a bit of letting go of the old ways
>(IOW, don't attempt to force Word 2007 to work exactly like previous
>versions) and adapting new ways, which, for me, have actually been more
>efficient.
>
>Please post all follow-up questions to the newsgroup. Requests for
>assistance by email cannot be acknowledged.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Beth Melton
>Microsoft Office MVP
>
>Coauthor of Word 2007 Inside Out:
>http://www.microsoft.com/MSPress/books/9801.aspx#AboutTheBook
>
>Word FAQ: http://mvps.org/word
>TechTrax eZine: http://mousetrax.com/techtrax/
>MVP FAQ site: http://mvps.org/
>
>"Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill.TakeThisOut@mvps.org> wrote in message
>news:OcC%235uxSIHA.5360@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>
>> The real problem is that MS depended too much on SQM data that suggested
>> users never customized the UI, overlooking the fact that (a) UI
>> customization, if captured at all by CEIP (and they weren't very confident
>> about that), would be captured only once, and that existing customizations
>> (created before Word 2002/2003) would not be represented at all. This led
>> the developers to believe that "users never customize the UI," which may
>> still be true for the majority (especially the large portion whose UI is
>> locked down by IT), but they overlooked a large and vocal minority who do
>> customize.
>>
>> --
>> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>> Words into Type
>> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>
>> "Jay Freedman" <jay.freedman.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:o1pfn31aore6qnu135v2fm4rm3r1al5u3g@4ax.com...
>>> Just a couple more observations in the mix:
>>>
>>> The "Ribbons are locked down" statement needs qualification. The
>>> built-in Ribbon groups aren't customizable, but it _is_ possible to
>>> remove any/all built-in groups and replace them with customized groups
>>> that might be either slight modifications of the built-ins or
>>> completely different. To do this, though, you need to get somewhat
>>> familiar with RibbonX, which is what Patrick Schmid tries to do at
>>> http://www.pschmid.net/office2007/ribbonx.
>>>
>>> Yes, this is harder than customizing Word 2003 and earlier, and thus
>>> not end-user-friendly. I suspect that's intentional, at the request of
>>> the aforementioned large companies. They can afford to have someone
>>> learn RibbonX, create customized templates for their needs, and have
>>> everyone in the company forced to use the same customizations
>>> (including IT support).
>>>
>>> Eventually someone will come up with an end-user tool that makes
>>> Ribbon changes easier. Patrick's RibbonCustomizer is close, but still
>>> not as easy as many would like. Probably it will have to wait until MS
>>> fixes some of the bugs and limitations in RibbonX itself.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:23:50 -0600, "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
>>> <sbarnhill.TakeThisOut@mvps.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>While I agree that a customizable ribbon or tab would be helpful, it has
>>>>been pointed out that you can create a specialize QAT for a specific
>>>>template. Don't think, however, that I am in any way defending the loss
>>>>of
>>>>customizability. I haven't yet "upgraded" to Office 2007, but I'm going
>>>>to
>>>>be one of the loudest whiners when I do, as I have highly customized my
>>>>Word
>>>>2003 UI (with some customizations probably dating back to Word 2.0).
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Suzanne S. Barnhill
>>>>Microsoft MVP (Word)
>>>>Words into Type
>>>>Fairhope, Alabama USA
>>>>
>>>>"Terry Farrell" <mvpng.TakeThisOut@po193qw.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>news:92DA4CE4-ED10-4910-939E-424F20E85FE6@microsoft.com...
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree: the current implementation makes it harder for all and I
>>>>> cannot