TOC, automatically update numbering & links?

The link in 2. is very helpful. I don't understand how Normal as
the "Style for following paragraph" will not give a heading. I looked
at my test document, which is set that way (default), and the headings
are headings - both the number and the few words that describe the
heading - (as indicated by the Style drop-down, and the fact that the
font is different), and the text below the heading is normal. I don't
want the text below a heading to be a heading style. It's the way I
want it, and how I would expect it to be, so I don't get what you are
saying.
I did an Insert->Index&Tables->Table of Contents on my test
document, and it created the TOC okay, and did not include the
document text that is after the headings. So again, I don't see what
you are saying.
The numbering link you gave says "Since there are good reasons for
using Word's built-in Heading styles, this page concentrates on using
those Heading styles." - so I'll stick with that. I went to Format-
>Style after reading 3 (below), to see what you mean by 'any style
with an outline level.' I can't immediately tell which of those have
an 'outline level.' Can those other styles (w/outline level) also be
used to make a TOC? Anyway, as it is I can modify heading styles to
look like I want, I can make a TOC easily from heading styles when I'm
done, those heading styles work in outline view to do what I want, and
the numbering suggestion link recommends using them. (I will be
changing settings for numbering as recommended there.)

On Feb 16, 12:46 am, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnh... DeleteThis @mvps.org> wrote:
> A few things you should know in addition to this:
>
> 1. If you use heading styles for an outline, then you should be aware that
> Normal is set as the "Style for following paragraph" of all headings styles,
> so what you get is not a heading.
>
> 2. Numbering will restart after a higher level if you have outline numbering
> set up as described athttp://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html
>
> 3. You don't have to use heading styles for your outlines; any style with an
> outline level can be used in Outline view; if you do use heading styles,
> you'll probably want to modify their formatting (and change the "Style for
> following paragraph").
>
> --
> Suzanne S. Barnhill
> Microsoft MVP (Word)
> Words into Type
> Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org
>
> <m.0... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:559c8d5d-5fa5-4efb-9469-378f414d0b7a@f20g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Well, I was skeptical at this point as nothing workable had been
> > suggested. I read that Outline view link, and tried it out. I can
> > "shrink" the whole document to just the headings (like a TOC) by going
> > to that view. Automatic numbering when adding headings works in that
> > view (you have to manually change the number to 1 after 'promoting' a
> > heading to a subheading as it continues the previous numbering, AND
> > add text after the number, to get a new number below it when you press
> > <enter>, but that's minor -- because of this at first it appeared it
> > wouldn't work - with normal auto-numbering you can just keep pressing
> > <enter> and get a new line with the next number, w/o having to type
> > some text after the number). Then you can expand it back out (view
> > all, or change back to normal view), and your are on the page that has
> > the heading the cursor was on, with all the document text below it.
> > (So you can move around a large document quickly.)
> > So it appears this will work for me. (And when I'm all done I'll
> > make a TOC from the headings...)
> > Thanks.
>
> > On Feb 15, 4:54 pm, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnh... DeleteThis @mvps.org> wrote:
> >> A TOC is not intended to be a working outline of a document; it is meant
> >> to
> >> be a guide to where things are in the document (like the TOC in a book).
> >> By
> >> default, page numbers in a TOC (and in some Word versions the entire TOC
> >> entry) are linked to the content in the document. Because the TOC is a
> >> single field, it cannot be changed in the way you describe. This is just
> >> a
> >> backwards way of thinking about it. Perhaps what would work better for
> >> you
> >> is to work in Outline view
> >> (seehttp://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/UsingOLView.htm), or you could
> >> use the
> >> Document Map to show you a working outline of the document, from which
> >> you
> >> can easily jump to any part of that document to add a new
> >> heading/section.
>
> >> --
> >> Suzanne S. Barnhill
> >> Microsoft MVP (Word)
> >> Words into Type
> >> Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org
>
> >> <m.0... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:aec6e9d5-660b-44fc-94fb-0ce90a50edbb@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > (For people reading this, my last reply was bottom-posted (below), but
> >> > the current reply to that was top-posted, so I'm top-posting here.)
>
> >> > You seem to be saying the TOC can be updated to match a changed
> >> > document (and I can rely on the automatic renumbering in the main
> >> > document when I add something in the middle). I wanted to use the TOC
> >> > as an evolving outline, so that stuff is concisely together so I can
> >> > see it, and change it there.
> >> > You seem to be saying I could go through dozen of pages to where a
> >> > new entry goes, add it there, and then go back to the TOC and press
> >> > F9. I want to do the opposite. I want to add it in the TOC, and have
> >> > the entry created in the middle of the existing document. I may want
> >> > to add several things like that at once, and go back and do the actual
> >> > writing later. If I have to go through pages and pages to add each
> >> > entry, that is a DISTRACTION TO THINKING. I can type much, much
> >> > faster than I can write by hand.
> >> > From my original post: "I also need the TOC to point to more than
> >> > the page number - I want the TOC number repeated where the actual
> >> > document text is:"
> >> > I had read of "linking," and I hoped it would do that.
> >> > It is not going to be helpful to me to have a TOC that can only be
> >> > created/udpated when the document is DONE (or a change is ALREADY
> >> > made), that's why I said "Again, I'm not interested in making
> >> > something pretty when I'm done with it" at the beginning of my last
> >> > post."
> >> > Maybe the problem is I'm having a hard time getting across what I
> >> > need. If MS Word won't do it, I need something else for this
> >> > particular project (which I've been putting off...). That's what I
> >> > want to know. You can't use a wrench as a screw driver, or "you need
> >> > the right tool for the job."
> >> > I used to write software, and it would be fairly easy to write. I
> >> > could then take the finished result (the manuscript) and import it
> >> > into MS Word to get the fonts I want and make it pretty. I may very
> >> > well end up doing just that, if I can't find software that does BASIC
> >> > OUTLINING. I don't care about pretty when I'm working on it. I need
> >> > headings, tabs, and any readable font. When comparing the time is
> >> > would take to write the software, vs. the time manually updating a TOC
> >> > and then the main document, I think the benefit of being able to work
> >> > with free flowing ideas in a concise TOC would outweigh the fact that
> >> > writing that software would take longer than doing manually updating
> >> > (which actually would only be true IF if already knew the whole format
> >> > in advance, which I don't, and which I need the free flow of ideas to
> >> > develop).
> >> > I thought my original question was simple. This reply is a bit
> >> > lengthy, but apparently I haven't said what I need effectively. I'm
> >> > bothering with this in case there IS a way to get MS Word to do this,
> >> > or something similar, because nobody here has said "NO," but rather
> >> > seem to misunderstand what I need to do, or I'm misunderstanding and
> >> > you are actually describing a way to do it.
> >> > I do appreciate your time replying.
>
> >> > On Feb 15, 12:37 am, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnh... DeleteThis @mvps.org> wrote:
> >> >> If the TOC is based on your numbered headings (or other styles), then
> >> >> all
> >> >> you have to do is press F9 in the TOC field to update it whenever you
> >> >> add
> >> >> new numbered headings/paragraphs. It does not update automatically,
> >> >> but
> >> >> neither do you have to "renumber" anything; you just update the field.
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Suzanne S. Barnhill
> >> >> Microsoft MVP (Word)
> >> >> Words into Type
> >> >> Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org
>
> >> >> <m.0... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:73d47d86-c1de-43ae-82ea-0e15f979c03e@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> > On Feb 12, 6:03 am, "Stefan Blom" <no.s... DeleteThis @please.xyz> wrote:
> >> >> >> As described earlier in this thread, you can have Word pick up any
> >> >> >> paragraph
> >> >> >> style (numbered or unnumbered) in a table of contents.
>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> Stefan Blom
> >> >> >> Microsoft Word MVP
>
> >> >> >> <m.0... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >> >>news:09ee5d34-15cd-49e4-b95e-4cd36ca0a388@o2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> >> > On Dec 13 2008, 7:52 pm, "Robert M. Franz (RMF)"
> >> >> >> > <robert.fr... DeleteThis @mvps.org> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> m.0... DeleteThis @yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >> >> >> >> [..]
>
> >> >> >> >> > I hope you can give me a suggestion on the method you find
> >> >> >> >> > works
> >> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> >> > best in the long run.
> >> >> >> >> > I am using MS Word 2000.
>
> >> >> >> >> How to create numbered headings or outline numbering in your
> >> >> >> >> Microsoft
> >> >> >> >> Word document (by Shauna
> >> >> >> >> Kelly)http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html
>
> >> >> >> > So MS Word is not going to do what I need... I will look for
> >> >> >> > something
> >> >> >> > else.
>
> >> >> > Again, I'm not interested in making something pretty when I'm done
> >> >> > with it, but with an ongoing, evolving table of contents, where I
> >> >> > don't have to renumber things either in the TOC at the top, or with
> >> >> > the number below where the relevant text is, when I add a new entry
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > the TOC. Nobody has said MS Word will do this.
> >> >> > My original post very clearly spells this out, but I will repeat
> >> >> > it
> >> >> > one last time.
>
> >> >> > TOC:
> >> >> > 1. Some stuff 'a'
> >> >> > 2. Some stuff 'c'
> >> >> > (Document text)
> >> >> > 1. Stuff about 'a'
> >> >> > 2. Sutff about 'c'
>
> >> >> > I want to add 'b' between 1 and 2, without renumbering everything
> >> >> > (in
> >> >> > the TOC and in the numbers below.) With automatic renumbering (but
> >> >> > apparently not if it's in a TOC), I can simply press <enter> and the
> >> >> > end of the 1. line, and it will make a new 2., and renumber the
> >> >> > existing 2. to 3., but that doesn't automatically do the other part.

If you look at Format | Paragraph for any given paragraph, you'll see the
outline level, which will be either Body Text or Level 1, Level 2, etc. Any
style can be chosen to include in the TOC (using the TOC Options dialog),
but any paragraph/style with an outline level other than Body Text will be
included automatically.

Users who are creating outlines are often using just the heading styles (in
order to get the outline numbering). Certainly the body text that goes below
the headings should not be a heading style (should be Normal or Body Text),
but you were talking about creating your outline to start with. I believe,
actually, that when you are in outline view with only headings displayed,
pressing Enter after a heading does give you a new heading (rather than a
body text paragraph).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

<m.0110.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d7ae78d1-c708-4b7a-bebf-e0e582e10ad8@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> The link in 2. is very helpful. I don't understand how Normal as
> the "Style for following paragraph" will not give a heading. I looked
> at my test document, which is set that way (default), and the headings
> are headings - both the number and the few words that describe the
> heading - (as indicated by the Style drop-down, and the fact that the
> font is different), and the text below the heading is normal. I don't
> want the text below a heading to be a heading style. It's the way I
> want it, and how I would expect it to be, so I don't get what you are
> saying.
> I did an Insert->Index&Tables->Table of Contents on my test
> document, and it created the TOC okay, and did not include the
> document text that is after the headings. So again, I don't see what
> you are saying.
> The numbering link you gave says "Since there are good reasons for
> using Word's built-in Heading styles, this page concentrates on using
> those Heading styles." - so I'll stick with that. I went to Format-
>>Style after reading 3 (below), to see what you mean by 'any style
> with an outline level.' I can't immediately tell which of those have
> an 'outline level.' Can those other styles (w/outline level) also be
> used to make a TOC? Anyway, as it is I can modify heading styles to
> look like I want, I can make a TOC easily from heading styles when I'm
> done, those heading styles work in outline view to do what I want, and
> the numbering suggestion link recommends using them. (I will be
> changing settings for numbering as recommended there.)
>
> On Feb 16, 12:46 am, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnh....RemoveThis@mvps.org> wrote:
>> A few things you should know in addition to this:
>>
>> 1. If you use heading styles for an outline, then you should be aware
>> that
>> Normal is set as the "Style for following paragraph" of all headings
>> styles,
>> so what you get is not a heading.
>>
>> 2. Numbering will restart after a higher level if you have outline
>> numbering
>> set up as described
>> athttp://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html
>>
>> 3. You don't have to use heading styles for your outlines; any style with
>> an
>> outline level can be used in Outline view; if you do use heading styles,
>> you'll probably want to modify their formatting (and change the "Style
>> for
>> following paragraph").
>>
>> --
>> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>> Words into Type
>> Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org
>>
>> <m.0....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:559c8d5d-5fa5-4efb-9469-378f414d0b7a@f20g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > Well, I was skeptical at this point as nothing workable had been
>> > suggested. I read that Outline view link, and tried it out. I can
>> > "shrink" the whole document to just the headings (like a TOC) by going
>> > to that view. Automatic numbering when adding headings works in that
>> > view (you have to manually change the number to 1 after 'promoting' a
>> > heading to a subheading as it continues the previous numbering, AND
>> > add text after the number, to get a new number below it when you press
>> > <enter>, but that's minor -- because of this at first it appeared it
>> > wouldn't work - with normal auto-numbering you can just keep pressing
>> > <enter> and get a new line with the next number, w/o having to type
>> > some text after the number). Then you can expand it back out (view
>> > all, or change back to normal view), and your are on the page that has
>> > the heading the cursor was on, with all the document text below it.
>> > (So you can move around a large document quickly.)
>> > So it appears this will work for me. (And when I'm all done I'll
>> > make a TOC from the headings...)
>> > Thanks.
>>
>> > On Feb 15, 4:54 pm, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnh....RemoveThis@mvps.org> wrote:
>> >> A TOC is not intended to be a working outline of a document; it is
>> >> meant
>> >> to
>> >> be a guide to where things are in the document (like the TOC in a
>> >> book).
>> >> By
>> >> default, page numbers in a TOC (and in some Word versions the entire
>> >> TOC
>> >> entry) are linked to the content in the document. Because the TOC is a
>> >> single field, it cannot be changed in the way you describe. This is
>> >> just
>> >> a
>> >> backwards way of thinking about it. Perhaps what would work better for
>> >> you
>> >> is to work in Outline view
>> >> (seehttp://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/UsingOLView.htm), or you
>> >> could
>> >> use the
>> >> Document Map to show you a working outline of the document, from which
>> >> you
>> >> can easily jump to any part of that document to add a new
>> >> heading/section.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>> >> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>> >> Words into Type
>> >> Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org
>>
>> >> <m.0....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:aec6e9d5-660b-44fc-94fb-0ce90a50edbb@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > (For people reading this, my last reply was bottom-posted (below),
>> >> > but
>> >> > the current reply to that was top-posted, so I'm top-posting here.)
>>
>> >> > You seem to be saying the TOC can be updated to match a changed
>> >> > document (and I can rely on the automatic renumbering in the main
>> >> > document when I add something in the middle). I wanted to use the
>> >> > TOC
>> >> > as an evolving outline, so that stuff is concisely together so I can
>> >> > see it, and change it there.
>> >> > You seem to be saying I could go through dozen of pages to where a
>> >> > new entry goes, add it there, and then go back to the TOC and press
>> >> > F9. I want to do the opposite. I want to add it in the TOC, and
>> >> > have
>> >> > the entry created in the middle of the existing document. I may want
>> >> > to add several things like that at once, and go back and do the
>> >> > actual
>> >> > writing later. If I have to go through pages and pages to add each
>> >> > entry, that is a DISTRACTION TO THINKING. I can type much, much
>> >> > faster than I can write by hand.
>> >> > From my original post: "I also need the TOC to point to more than
>> >> > the page number - I want the TOC number repeated where the actual
>> >> > document text is:"
>> >> > I had read of "linking," and I hoped it would do that.
>> >> > It is not going to be helpful to me to have a TOC that can only
>> >> > be
>> >> > created/udpated when the document is DONE (or a change is ALREADY
>> >> > made), that's why I said "Again, I'm not interested in making
>> >> > something pretty when I'm done with it" at the beginning of my last
>> >> > post."
>> >> > Maybe the problem is I'm having a hard time getting across what I
>> >> > need. If MS Word won't do it, I need something else for this
>> >> > particular project (which I've been putting off...). That's what I
>> >> > want to know. You can't use a wrench as a screw driver, or "you
>> >> > need
>> >> > the right tool for the job."
>> >> > I used to write software, and it would be fairly easy to write.
>> >> > I
>> >> > could then take the finished result (the manuscript) and import it
>> >> > into MS Word to get the fonts I want and make it pretty. I may very
>> >> > well end up doing just that, if I can't find software that does
>> >> > BASIC
>> >> > OUTLINING. I don't care about pretty when I'm working on it. I need
>> >> > headings, tabs, and any readable font. When comparing the time is
>> >> > would take to write the software, vs. the time manually updating a
>> >> > TOC
>> >> > and then the main document, I think the benefit of being able to
>> >> > work
>> >> > with free flowing ideas in a concise TOC would outweigh the fact
>> >> > that
>> >> > writing that software would take longer than doing manually updating
>> >> > (which actually would only be true IF if already knew the whole
>> >> > format
>> >> > in advance, which I don't, and which I need the free flow of ideas
>> >> > to
>> >> > develop).
>> >> > I thought my original question was simple. This reply is a bit
>> >> > lengthy, but apparently I haven't said what I need effectively. I'm
>> >> > bothering with this in case there IS a way to get MS Word to do
>> >> > this,
>> >> > or something similar, because nobody here has said "NO," but rather
>> >> > seem to misunderstand what I need to do, or I'm misunderstanding and
>> >> > you are actually describing a way to do it.
>> >> > I do appreciate your time replying.
>>
>> >> > On Feb 15, 12:37 am, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnh....RemoveThis@mvps.org>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> If the TOC is based on your numbered headings (or other styles),
>> >> >> then
>> >> >> all
>> >> >> you have to do is press F9 in the TOC field to update it whenever
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> add
>> >> >> new numbered headings/paragraphs. It does not update automatically,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> neither do you have to "renumber" anything; you just update the
>> >> >> field.
>>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>> >> >> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>> >> >> Words into Type
>> >> >> Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org
>>
>> >> >> <m.0....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> >>news:73d47d86-c1de-43ae-82ea-0e15f979c03e@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> > On Feb 12, 6:03 am, "Stefan Blom" <no.s....RemoveThis@please.xyz> wrote:
>> >> >> >> As described earlier in this thread, you can have Word pick up
>> >> >> >> any
>> >> >> >> paragraph
>> >> >> >> style (numbered or unnumbered) in a table of contents.
>>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Stefan Blom
>> >> >> >> Microsoft Word MVP
>>
>> >> >> >> <m.0....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> >> >>news:09ee5d34-15cd-49e4-b95e-4cd36ca0a388@o2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> >> > On Dec 13 2008, 7:52 pm, "Robert M. Franz (RMF)"
>> >> >> >> > <robert.fr....RemoveThis@mvps.org> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> m.0....RemoveThis@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> [..]
>>
>> >> >> >> >> > I hope you can give me a suggestion on the method you find
>> >> >> >> >> > works
>> >> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >> > best in the long run.
>> >> >> >> >> > I am using MS Word 2000.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> How to create numbered headings or outline numbering in your
>> >> >> >> >> Microsoft
>> >> >> >> >> Word document (by Shauna
>> >> >> >> >> Kelly)http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html
>>
>> >> >> >> > So MS Word is not going to do what I need... I will look for
>> >> >> >> > something
>> >> >> >> > else.
>>
>> >> >> > Again, I'm not interested in making something pretty when I'm
>> >> >> > done
>> >> >> > with it, but with an ongoing, evolving table of contents, where I
>> >> >> > don't have to renumber things either in the TOC at the top, or
>> >> >> > with
>> >> >> > the number below where the relevant text is, when I add a new
>> >> >> > entry
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > the TOC. Nobody has said MS Word will do this.
>> >> >> > My original post very clearly spells this out, but I will
>> >> >> > repeat
>> >> >> > it
>> >> >> > one last time.
>>
>> >> >> > TOC:
>> >> >> > 1. Some stuff 'a'
>> >> >> > 2. Some stuff 'c'
>> >> >> > (Document text)
>> >> >> > 1. Stuff about 'a'
>> >> >> > 2. Sutff about 'c'
>>
>> >> >> > I want to add 'b' between 1 and 2, without renumbering everything
>> >> >> > (in
>> >> >> > the TOC and in the numbers below.) With automatic renumbering
>> >> >> > (but
>> >> >> > apparently not if it's in a TOC), I can simply press <enter> and
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > end of the 1. line, and it will make a new 2., and renumber the
>> >> >> > existing 2. to 3., but that doesn't automatically do the other
>> >> >> > part.
>