Styles, headings, numbering, sanity ... help?

Well, I think Sweden is probably awake by now, but Stefan doesn't seem to
have put in an appearance, so let me see if I can dig up one of the many
posts of his that I've saved (in hopes that someday I can buckle down and
figure it out). The basic principles of outline numbering still apply. The
two "gotchas" that make it difficult to understand are that (a) you can't
modify outline numbering for a style (or set of styles) from Modify Style
any more and (b) the numbering now belongs entirely to the list rather than
the style (and the formatting of the List Paragraph style is vital as well).

Here's part of one recent post from Stefan:

Note that the principles for numbering are the same as in previous versions
of Word, which means that you can still make use of the article at
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html.

The difference is that you can no longer access the multilevel list dialog
box via the Modify Style dialog box for the top-level paragraph style.
Therefore, you will have to use Home tab | Multilevel List | Define New
Multilevel List as described above. A more robust method will be to create
the numbering scheme from scratch as a so-called list style, carefully
defining the formatting for each level and assigning the relevant paragraph
style to each numbering level. That allows you to modify the list more
easily via the Modify Style dialog box for the list style (for example by
right-clicking the style name under "List Styles" at Home tab | Multilevel
List and choosing Modify from the context menu).

Here's another with a bit more detail:

As you've noticed, Word 2007 no longer allows you to go via the Modify Style
dialog box when you want to modify outline/multilevel numbering (unless you
are using a list style). However, the general principle remains the same in
Word 2007: numbering should be style-based for stability reasons.

To edit an existing outline-numbered list: Place the insertion point in the
first top-level paragraph of the document (for example, in the first Heading
1 paragraph if this is heading numbering). On the Home tab, click Multilevel
List | Define New Multilevel List. This displays a dialog box similar to the
Customize Outline Numbered dialog box of previous versions (see
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html for a
description of the options).

On the other hand, if you want to create a new outline-numbered list in Word
2007, you should set it up using list styles. On the Home tab, click
Multilevel List, and then click Define New List Style. In the Modify Style
dialog box, type a name for the list style. To define the numbering
properties, click the Format button, and then click Numbering; this displays
the Modify Multilevel List dialog box, where you can change the number
format, indentation, attach paragraph styles to the numbering levels, etc.

The list styles of the active document are displayed under "List Styles" at
Home tab | Multilevel List. You can click a style to apply it to text, but
if you've attached numbering to paragraph styles, you'll find it easier to
apply the appropriate paragraph style directly. To edit a list style,
right-click it and choose Modify from the context menu.

If these don't do it for you, keep posting back and sooner or later Stefan
will arrive, or I can dredge up a few more of his posts!

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Bill Weylock" <bill DeleteThis @nospam.net> wrote in message
news:C4A7474F.5C6C9%bill@nospam.net...
> Thanks, Suzanne -
>
> I¹ve been reading and reading and clicking and snarling....
>
> It¹s as if the documentation has been taken over by the people who right
> the
> little cards you find in hotels telling you how wise you have been to stay
> there.
>
> In all fairness, I¹m finding things that are good to know; but why oh why
> would they not understand that someone who actually wants to write instead
> of click on color-change icons might need a direct discussion of the
> theory
> and practice? And when they change a long-standing paradigm, wouldn¹t you
> think a little article on the different ways to think about things might
> be
> helpful?
>
> I have never before hated Microsoft. I¹ve always known that if one cared
> to
> read the manual you could master the program and work around anomalies.
> This
> is just awful.
>
> Thanks again. It¹s so frustrating to have spent years learning how to do
> things that are so important to every business day and have the entire
> scheme disappear.
>
> What I want to do, of course, is link an outline numbering style to a
> paragraph style so each level of my outline has a specific numbering
> scheme.
>
> When does Sweden come on line?
>
> And is one nice guy all that stands between us and the abyss?
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> - Bill
>
>
> On 7/18/08 9:14 PM, in article ep1l1cV6IHA.4352 DeleteThis @TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl,
> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill DeleteThis @mvps.org> wrote:
>
>> Hang in there just a little longer, Bill. Stefan Blom, who comes as close
>> to
>> understanding these issues as anyone, is in Sweden, so he's gone to bed,
>> but
>> tomorrow, with any luck, he'll pick this up and help you out! I agree
>> that
>> numbering is extremely mysterious in Word 2007. I've been happily using
>> the
>> techniques in
>> http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html to create
>> virtually unbreakable outline-numbered lists in Word 2003, but even
>> Shauna
>> hasn't yet been able to bring herself to update this article for Word
>> 2007.
>> It *is* possible to achieve what you want, but it is approached in a
>> different (and not entirely intuitive) way.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
> Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.3
> Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3
>
>
>
>

"Bill Weylock" <bill.RemoveThis@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:C4A8E1B6.5C6F7%bill@nospam.net...
> Suzanne -
>
>
> This is really great stuff. Thanks very much!
>
> I haven¹t tried it all yet, but I¹m beginning to sense there is an actual
> logic to the way numbering and paragraph styles relate to each other. But
> OMG, why would they not document this? It boggles my mind that they would
> leave users drifting like this when they change a basic paradigm that any
> serious writer (especially a business writer) depends on for productivity
> and sanity.
>

As far as I know, Microsoft has never officially documented the "use the top
style to change an outline numbered list" approach (which is no longer
possible to use) either; instead, MVP Shauna Kelly created the instructions
that experienced users have been following for the past years (see
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html). In other
words, the status of documentation has not changed. <sigh>

> I¹m off to try it.
>
> One thing I discovered on my own when I gave up and took one of the
> demo/tutorials is that manual indents are intended to change styles.

If you are referring to the Increase Indent / Decrease Indent buttons, they
can be used to demote and promote multilevel lists in Word, which means
changing paragraph styles if styles have been associated with each numbering
level.


--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP










> I
> couldn¹t figure out why that was happening. I would get everything looking
> good, adjust the indentation, and observe what looked to me like chaos.
>
> Too tired and strung out to describe it accurately, but the bottom line is
> that I¹m beginning to believe I have a program that can actually work for
> me.
>
> I have both Office 2008 for Mac and Office 2007 for Windows XP. You and I
> are using the same iMac. I¹m using Fusion on it.
>
> Thanks again.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> - Bill
>
>
> On 7/19/08 8:21 AM, in article uUWn0Mb6IHA.3816.RemoveThis@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl,
> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill.RemoveThis@mvps.org> wrote:
>
>> Well, I think Sweden is probably awake by now, but Stefan doesn't seem to
>> have put in an appearance, so let me see if I can dig up one of the many
>> posts of his that I've saved (in hopes that someday I can buckle down and
>> figure it out). The basic principles of outline numbering still apply.
>> The
>> two "gotchas" that make it difficult to understand are that (a) you can't
>> modify outline numbering for a style (or set of styles) from Modify Style
>> any more and (b) the numbering now belongs entirely to the list rather
>> than
>> the style (and the formatting of the List Paragraph style is vital as
>> well).
>>
>> Here's part of one recent post from Stefan:
>>
>> Note that the principles for numbering are the same as in previous
>> versions
>> of Word, which means that you can still make use of the article at
>> http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html.
>>
>> The difference is that you can no longer access the multilevel list
>> dialog
>> box via the Modify Style dialog box for the top-level paragraph style.
>> Therefore, you will have to use Home tab | Multilevel List | Define New
>> Multilevel List as described above. A more robust method will be to
>> create
>> the numbering scheme from scratch as a so-called list style, carefully
>> defining the formatting for each level and assigning the relevant
>> paragraph
>> style to each numbering level. That allows you to modify the list more
>> easily via the Modify Style dialog box for the list style (for example by
>> right-clicking the style name under "List Styles" at Home tab |
>> Multilevel
>> List and choosing Modify from the context menu).
>>
>> Here's another with a bit more detail:
>>
>> As you've noticed, Word 2007 no longer allows you to go via the Modify
>> Style
>> dialog box when you want to modify outline/multilevel numbering (unless
>> you
>> are using a list style). However, the general principle remains the same
>> in
>> Word 2007: numbering should be style-based for stability reasons.
>>
>> To edit an existing outline-numbered list: Place the insertion point in
>> the
>> first top-level paragraph of the document (for example, in the first
>> Heading
>> 1 paragraph if this is heading numbering). On the Home tab, click
>> Multilevel
>> List | Define New Multilevel List. This displays a dialog box similar to
>> the
>> Customize Outline Numbered dialog box of previous versions (see
>> http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html for a
>> description of the options).
>>
>> On the other hand, if you want to create a new outline-numbered list in
>> Word
>> 2007, you should set it up using list styles. On the Home tab, click
>> Multilevel List, and then click Define New List Style. In the Modify
>> Style
>> dialog box, type a name for the list style. To define the numbering
>> properties, click the Format button, and then click Numbering; this
>> displays
>> the Modify Multilevel List dialog box, where you can change the number
>> format, indentation, attach paragraph styles to the numbering levels,
>> etc.
>>
>> The list styles of the active document are displayed under "List Styles"
>> at
>> Home tab | Multilevel List. You can click a style to apply it to text,
>> but
>> if you've attached numbering to paragraph styles, you'll find it easier
>> to
>> apply the appropriate paragraph style directly. To edit a list style,
>> right-click it and choose Modify from the context menu.
>>
>> If these don't do it for you, keep posting back and sooner or later
>> Stefan
>> will arrive, or I can dredge up a few more of his posts!
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
> Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.3
> Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3
>
>
>
>

Are you saying that you have created a style name alias? If so, note that an
alias will be shown in the "Name" box (for example of the Modify Style
dialog box) but not in drop-down lists.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP


"Bill Weylock" <bill RemoveThis @nospam.net> wrote in message
news:C4A8E2DD.5C6FC%bill@nospam.net...
> One other thing that confuses me is that the paragraph styles accessible
> through the Multilevel List dialogs are not named exactly as the styles in
> the paragraph styles dialogs. For Heading 1 (for instance) I change the
> name
> to Heading 1,1. That lets me call the style with a keyboard shortcut. In
> the
> list dialogs, however, all I see is Heading 1. Hope there isn¹t some
> duplication of paragraph styles going on.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
> Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.4
> Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3
>
>
> On 7/19/08 8:21 AM, in article uUWn0Mb6IHA.3816 RemoveThis @TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl,
> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbarnhill RemoveThis @mvps.org> wrote:
>
>> Well, I think Sweden is probably awake by now, but Stefan doesn't seem to
>> have put in an appearance, so let me see if I can dig up one of the many
>> posts of his that I've saved (in hopes that someday I can buckle down and
>> figure it out). The basic principles of outline numbering still apply.
>> The
>> two "gotchas" that make it difficult to understand are that (a) you can't
>> modify outline numbering for a style (or set of styles) from Modify Style
>> any more and (b) the numbering now belongs entirely to the list rather
>> than
>> the style (and the formatting of the List Paragraph style is vital as
>> well).
>>
>> Here's part of one recent post from Stefan:
>>
>> Note that the principles for numbering are the same as in previous
>> versions
>> of Word, which means that you can still make use of the article at
>> http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html.
>>
>> The difference is that you can no longer access the multilevel list
>> dialog
>> box via the Modify Style dialog box for the top-level paragraph style.
>> Therefore, you will have to use Home tab | Multilevel List | Define New
>> Multilevel List as described above. A more robust method will be to
>> create
>> the numbering scheme from scratch as a so-called list style, carefully
>> defining the formatting for each level and assigning the relevant
>> paragraph
>> style to each numbering level. That allows you to modify the list more
>> easily via the Modify Style dialog box for the list style (for example by
>> right-clicking the style name under "List Styles" at Home tab |
>> Multilevel
>> List and choosing Modify from the context menu).
>>
>> Here's another with a bit more detail:
>>
>> As you've noticed, Word 2007 no longer allows you to go via the Modify
>> Style
>> dialog box when you want to modify outline/multilevel numbering (unless
>> you
>> are using a list style). However, the general principle remains the same
>> in
>> Word 2007: numbering should be style-based for stability reasons.
>>
>> To edit an existing outline-numbered list: Place the insertion point in
>> the
>> first top-level paragraph of the document (for example, in the first
>> Heading
>> 1 paragraph if this is heading numbering). On the Home tab, click
>> Multilevel
>> List | Define New Multilevel List. This displays a dialog box similar to
>> the
>> Customize Outline Numbered dialog box of previous versions (see
>> http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html for a
>> description of the options).
>>
>> On the other hand, if you want to create a new outline-numbered list in
>> Word
>> 2007, you should set it up using list styles. On the Home tab, click
>> Multilevel List, and then click Define New List Style. In the Modify
>> Style
>> dialog box, type a name for the list style. To define the numbering
>> properties, click the Format button, and then click Numbering; this
>> displays
>> the Modify Multilevel List dialog box, where you can change the number
>> format, indentation, attach paragraph styles to the numbering levels,
>> etc.
>>
>> The list styles of the active document are displayed under "List Styles"
>> at
>> Home tab | Multilevel List. You can click a style to apply it to text,
>> but
>> if you've attached numbering to paragraph styles, you'll find it easier
>> to
>> apply the appropriate paragraph style directly. To edit a list style,
>> right-click it and choose Modify from the context menu.
>>
>> If these don't do it for you, keep posting back and sooner or later
>> Stefan
> will arrive, or I can dredge up a few more of his posts!
>
>
>
>

"Bill Weylock" <bill DeleteThis @nospam.net> wrote in message
news:C4AA82EC.5C7FE%bill@nospam.net...
> Stefan -
>
> Thank you for responding. I have read a lot of your posts and know that
> you
> have contributed an immense amount of knowledge and advice in this group.
> Seems appropriate to acknowledge that when I am trying to impose further.
>
> First, I did look at Shauna¹s instructions. They have a few interesting
> details and suggestions for ³best practices² that go a little beyond what
> I¹ve been doing, but I have understood numbering and styles rather
> completely for many years. There has never been a problem.
>
> In Word preferences, I believe in the Compatibility section, I have always
> disabled anything that sounded like ³automatic numbering of lists² and
> have
> used paragraph styles (headings to be specific) linked to level numbers
> set
> up in the Outline Numbering dialog. I have had no trouble with Tables of
> Contents generated from the numbered headings (at least not since they
> fixed
> some nasty bugs in MacWord a few years back).
>
> So I¹m coming to this with good habits, never using anything to control
> the
> look of paragraphs but styles and never using anything to govern numbering
> but heading styles linked to level styles.
>
> What seemed to be working well for a while was this scheme:
>
> I had Heading 1 set up to with a Level 1 style using ³None² for numbering.
> That¹s because the numbers in a questionnaire needed to be inserted
> manually
> for collaborative preference reasons (by someone who has a phobia for
> automatic numbering, if you must know) since questionnaires have ³skip²
> patterns based on answers to previous questions, there is a lot to be said
> for not having numbers update. I¹ve tried using cross-references to handle
> skip patterns. Of course that works very well, but not when you have to
> hand
> a document over to someone who doesn¹t understand styles, who changes
> headings to ³Normal² and inserts hard returns between paragraphs.
>
> Anyway, everything seemed to be going all right when all level 2
> (Heading2)
> numbers decided to ignore the intervening Level 1 paragraphs and number
> themselves sequentially through the entire document. I had everything set,
> of course, to begin a new numbering scheme after Level 1. But something
> came
> unstuck.
>

Note that even if you want level 1 not to be numbered, it still has to be
part of the multilevel (outline-numbered) list; then you should be able to
restart level 2 correctly.

To make sure that level 2 in a list restarts after level 1, no matter if
level 1 has actual number formatting applied, just modify the list and
enable the "Restart list after" option, making sure to choose "Level 1."

> Ever since I have found it impossible to make sense out of all the welter
> of instructions about lists and multi-level lists and list styles...
>
> If I start thinking about ³List styles² as the old Word 2003 ³levels²,
> would that be appropriate? Is the same function available but under
> different names and menus?

The underlying numbering scheme (list template) remains unchanged in Word
2007 (as far as I know). In other words, a list style stores the formatting
of an entire list template, including nine numbering levels as well as any
links to paragraph styles.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP







>
> Hope this makes some sense. Thanks!
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> - Bill
>
>
> On 7/21/08 3:12 AM, in article ed2qFpx6IHA.4468 DeleteThis @TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl,
> "Stefan Blom" <no.spam DeleteThis @please.xyz> wrote:
>
>> "Bill Weylock" <bill DeleteThis @nospam.net> wrote in message
>> news:C4A8E1B6.5C6F7%bill@nospam.net...
>>> > Suzanne -
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This is really great stuff. Thanks very much!
>>> >
>>> > I haven¹t tried it all yet, but I¹m beginning to sense there is an
>>> > actual
>>> > logic to the way numbering and paragraph styles relate to each other.
>>> > But
>>> > OMG, why would they not document this? It boggles my mind that they
>>> > would
>>> > leave users drifting like this when they change a basic paradigm that
>>> > any
>>> > serious writer (especially a business writer) depends on for
>>> > productivity
>>> > and sanity.
>>> >
>>
>> As far as I know, Microsoft has never officially documented the "use the
>> top
>> style to change an outline numbered list" approach (which is no longer
>> possible to use) either; instead, MVP Shauna Kelly created the
>> instructions
>> that experienced users have been following for the past years (see
>> http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html). In
>> other
>> words, the status of documentation has not changed. <sigh>
>>
>>> > I¹m off to try it.
>>> >
>>> > One thing I discovered on my own when I gave up and took one of the
>>> > demo/tutorials is that manual indents are intended to change styles.
>>
>> If you are referring to the Increase Indent / Decrease Indent buttons,
>> they
>> can be used to demote and promote multilevel lists in Word, which means
>> changing paragraph styles if styles have been associated with each
>> numbering
>> level.
>>
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
> iMac 2.8Ghz -10.5.4
> Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3
>
>
>
>

Well, the quick way to create heading numbering is to click the Home tab,
click Multilevel List, and then choose one of the built-in formats (found
under "List Library").

To modify such a numbering format already applied to text, do the following:
Place the insertion point in the first Heading 1 paragraph, and then click
Home tab | Multilevel List | Define New Multilevel List. You'll see a dialog
box similar to the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog of Word 97-2003
(the article at
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html provides a
description of the options). As in previous versions, you can use the dialog
box to define the numbering, indentation and so on (be sure to click the
More button to see all options).

The "new" way to create multilevel lists (which was actually supported in
Word 2003 too) is to use list styles. Each list style stores all aspects of
numbering for each of the nine numbering levels, for example, the number
format, indentation, the associated paragraph style, and so on.

To create a list style: On the Home tab, click Multilevel List, and then
click Define New List Style. In the Modify Style dialog box, type a name for
the list style. To define the numbering properties, click the Format button,
and then click Numbering; this displays the Modify Multilevel List dialog
box, where you can change the number format, indentation, attach paragraph
styles to the numbering levels, etc.

The list styles of the active document are displayed under "List Styles" at
Home tab | Multilevel List. You can click a style to apply it to text, but
if you've attached numbering to paragraph styles, you'll find it easier to
apply the appropriate paragraph style directly. To edit a list style,
right-click it and choose Modify from the context menu.

For a few additional remarks, see also another message in this thread, which
I actually wrote yesterday but forgot to send.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP


"Bill Weylock" <bill.TakeThisOut@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:C4AB2A6A.5C878%bill@nospam.net...
> Stefan -
>
>
> Reading through all my blather in the last post, I realized I never asked
> a
> clear question....
>
> Can you and would you please help me conceptually map the 2003
> Heading/Level
> style creation and modifaction steps to the new interface. Apparently
> everything may actually still work just about the same. But they call
> things
> by different names and have moved the dialog access...
>
> It¹s like a fun little game they made for us. The prize is being able to
> get
> your bloody work done!
>
> If you could do this, Stefan, I would be grateful. I¹ll even stick around
> and try to help others.
>
> Please?
>
> Thanks (hopeful) in advance.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> - Bill
>
>
> On 7/21/08 3:13 AM, in article u8hRfpx6IHA.2332.TakeThisOut@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl,
> "Stefan Blom" <no.spam.TakeThisOut@please.xyz> wrote:
>
>> Are you saying that you have created a style name alias? If so, note that
>> an
>> alias will be shown in the "Name" box (for example of the Modify Style
>> dialog box) but not in drop-down lists.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
> iMac 2.8Ghz -10.5.4
> Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3
>
>
>
>

"Bill Weylock" wrote:

> Is there a document anywhere that explains how Word deals with numbering
> now? I have used heading styles and outline numbering for many years, and I
> have built long and complex documents with very little difficulty.
>
> In 2007 there don't seem to be any rules, and there does not seem to be any
> documentation. Was this program documented by a scouting troop that was
> called away for naptime? Why on earth is there no clear explanation of how
> to make basic paragraph numbering schemes behave properly? Or is there?
>
> I come to this from Mac Word and also from Word 2003. Neither gave me
> trouble. I understand (or used to understand) styles and outlining.
>
> I simply can't make the blasted things behave. I want Heading 1 to be
> numbered but to display no number. I want Heading 2 to display arabic
> numerals and restart numbering after every level 1 (heading 1) paragraph.
>
> Is that possible?
>
> how do i keep paragraphs from changing margin and tab settings when i apply
> a number to them?
>
> I know this is rambling, but i am near emotional collapse trying to make
> something that used to be easy work at all.
>
> If there is a 2007 Word Paragraph Numbering for Dummies book, i'll buy it.
> Just please help me solve this particular thing so i can go on with my life
> and not lose a client?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>