CSS puts in extra space ... why?

On Aug 4, 6:39 am, Ben Bacarisse <ben.use....RemoveThis@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58....RemoveThis@USComputerGurus.com> writes:
> > On Aug 1, 11:47 pm, RichardL
> > <RichardDummyMailbox58....RemoveThis@USComputerGurus.com> wrote:
> >> Hi All,
>
> >> I'm planning to create a set of Web pages to present a seminar.
> >> Essentially, I intend to present two columns: an accordion menu and a
> >> display pane for a selected item.
>
> <snip>
>
> > With Ed Mullen's help, I overcame my Comcast.net problems and have
> > now posted a version of my Preliminary Accordion Menu page on
> >http://home.comcast.net/~captqueeg/918-AccordionMenu.htm.
>
> > The .htm file references .js and .css files. I wonder whether anyone
> > can see the sources for these auxiliary files, which may often be the
> > cause of authoring problems.
>
> I am stumped! If I could *not* see the sources, then there would be a
> problem (the page would not work) but since I can, all is well. Do
> you mean that in some case referenced CSS files are "shown" rather
> then "used"? If so, I have never seen this behaviour.
>
> I much bigger problem is relying on optional technology for
> navigation. How could that possibly be a good idea?
>
> --
> Ben.

Hi Ben,

Thanks for responding.

> I am stumped! If I could *not* see the sources, then there
> would be a problem (the page would not work) ...

I explained the cause and resolution of my problem in response to
Beauregard, below.

> I much bigger problem is relying on optional technology for
> navigation. How could that possibly be a good idea?

I'm new to CSS, so I undoubtedly make many poor choices. The
approach I used in this tentative web page was recommended by a
respondent on this thread and endorsed by another as a valid
approach. And I explained my goal

I'd be interested in learning what you see as "optional technology?"

And I wonder whether you might see things differently if you
considered my goals as the original post on this thread explained:

"I'm planning to create a set of Web pages to present a seminar.
Essentially, I intend to present two columns: an accordion menu and a
display pane for a selected item."

Best wishes,
Richard

RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58407 RemoveThis @USComputerGurus.com> writes:

> On Aug 1, 11:47 pm, RichardL
> <RichardDummyMailbox58... RemoveThis @USComputerGurus.com> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm planning to create a set of Web pages to present a seminar.
>> Essentially, I intend to present two columns: an accordion menu and a
>> display pane for a selected item.
<snip>

> With Ed Mullen's help, I overcame my Comcast.net problems and have
> now posted a version of my Preliminary Accordion Menu page on
> http://home.comcast.net/~captqueeg/918-AccordionMenu.htm.
>
> The .htm file references .js and .css files. I wonder whether anyone
> can see the sources for these auxiliary files, which may often be the
> cause of authoring problems.

I am stumped! If I could *not* see the sources, then there would be a
problem (the page would not work) but since I can, all is well. Do
you mean that in some case referenced CSS files are "shown" rather
then "used"? If so, I have never seen this behaviour.

I much bigger problem is relying on optional technology for
navigation. How could that possibly be a good idea?

--
Ben.

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
> RichardL wrote:
>
>> Furthermore, Ed told me he used SeaMonkey. I tried that browser,
>> which to my surprise worked perfectly on my system. That allowed me
>> to log on to Comcast.net, ...
>
> It isn't SeaMonkey that allowed the page to work, it's the fact that you
> probably have JavaScript disabled in SeaMonkey.
>
> The comcast.net main page fails (goes into constant loop of some sort)
> due to the JavaScript error, and does it in any browser with JavaScript
> enabled.
>
>> I don't know if I'll ever learn the real cause of the Comcast.net
>> problem on my machine. I find their tech support to be useless --
>> nice people, but not the sharpest arrows in the quiver. But no
>> matter: I've now got full functionality for my purposes.
>
> It isn't your machine. It's the web site with the problem.
>
> I tried to use their "Contact Us" link, but it wants to dump a dozen
> cookies on my browser(s) so I gave up on that. You're the subscriber;
> you should let them know about the problem. Frankly, I'm surprised they
> haven't already been notified that 90% of their visitors can't go to the
> site.
>

The issue is not javascript, nor the browser compatibility. I just
tested it using SeaMonkey, Firefox, Opera and IE7. You need to allow
cookies on the site or it simply sits there looping as it tries to load.
Dumb design but that appears to be all it is.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
Don't bother me. I'm living happily ever after.

RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58407 RemoveThis @USComputerGurus.com> writes:

>> I much bigger problem is relying on optional technology for
>> navigation. How could that possibly be a good idea?
>
> I'm new to CSS, so I undoubtedly make many poor choices.

The problem is JavaScript not CSS.

> I'd be interested in learning what you see as "optional technology?"

Things that you can't rely on being there (e.g. scripting, flash,
embedded players, etc.).

> And I wonder whether you might see things differently if you
> considered my goals as the original post on this thread explained:
>
> "I'm planning to create a set of Web pages to present a seminar.
> Essentially, I intend to present two columns: an accordion menu and a
> display pane for a selected item."

This news group is about authoring for the world-wide-web. If your
solution if to be used in some controlled environment for presenting
this seminar, then you solution may well be fine, but I made the not
unreasonable assumption that the seminar was to be published on the
www (since that is what we talk about here). Some of the original
discussion was about putting the pages online, which also suggests you
were intending to publish on the web.

--
Ben.

On Aug 4, 10:41 am, Ben Bacarisse <ben.use....RemoveThis@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58....RemoveThis@USComputerGurus.com> writes:
> >> I much bigger problem is relying on optional technology for
> >> navigation. How could that possibly be a good idea?
>
> > I'm new to CSS, so I undoubtedly make many poor choices.
>
> The problem is JavaScript not CSS.
>
> > I'd be interested in learning what you see as "optional technology?"
>
> Things that you can't rely on being there (e.g. scripting, flash,
> embedded players, etc.).
>
> > And I wonder whether you might see things differently if you
> > considered my goals as the original post on this thread explained:
>
> > "I'm planning to create a set of Web pages to present a seminar.
> > Essentially, I intend to present two columns: an accordion menu and a
> > display pane for a selected item."
>
> This news group is about authoring for the world-wide-web. If your
> solution if to be used in some controlled environment for presenting
> this seminar, then you solution may well be fine, but I made the not
> unreasonable assumption that the seminar was to be published on the
> www (since that is what we talk about here). Some of the original
> discussion was about putting the pages online, which also suggests you
> were intending to publish on the web.
>
> --
> Ben.

Hi Ben,

> Things that you can't rely on being there (e.g. scripting, flash,
> embedded players, etc.).

The only one of them I'm using is scripting. So I'd be fine if I put
in something that tests whether a user's browser is scripting-enabled
and, if not merely display a page indicating that scripting must be
enabled. True?

> ... then you solution may well be fine

Thanks for that confirmation.

> ... I made the not unreasonable assumption that the
> seminar was to be published on the www

A quite reasonable assumption. I do hope to get to that, but I've
got to learn how to crawl before I start running. So my short-term
goals, in overview, are:
- creating a presentation vehicle to be run on one machine with output
to a projector, which entails:
--- getting the .js and .css stuff working correctly with good
aesthetics
--- getting the accordion mechanism programmed
--- producing content for my first seminar, which will probably
"Elementary HTML" (which I've been asked to present this Fall)

I've also got a "tables" version of this which I'm trying to smooth
out right now.

If that all works well, I may consider presenting getting a hosting
site and put it up, but I doubt it since there's a ton of stuff on
that topic already. But I will be surely using the techniques from
this exercise in developing web sites for small business.

Thanks for taking trouble to look at my efforts.

Best wishes,
Richard

In article
<YU9ti.398616$p47.369226@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous RemoveThis @example.invalid> wrote:

> JavaScript
>
> Use it for fluff, but not for anything important.

Some Sudoku checkers (to see that a newspaper has not stuffed up
the puzzle) are run in js, is this fluff? What are life's
priorities?

--
dorayme

RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58407 RemoveThis @USComputerGurus.com> writes:

>> Things that you can't rely on being there (e.g. scripting, flash,
>> embedded players, etc.).
>
> The only one of them I'm using is scripting. So I'd be fine if I put
> in something that tests whether a user's browser is scripting-enabled
> and, if not merely display a page indicating that scripting must be
> enabled. True?

No. It is not good practice, and some of the consequences such as
hiding the site from most search engines, might not be at all what you
want.

>> ... then you solution may well be fine
>
> Thanks for that confirmation.

Eh? You suggest below that you are not implementing a closed
application so the pre-condition for my saying that your solution "may
well be fine" is not met. See the above.

>> ... I made the not unreasonable assumption that the
>> seminar was to be published on the www
>
> A quite reasonable assumption. I do hope to get to that, but I've
> got to learn how to crawl before I start running.

You will run better, if your first steps are in the right direction.
Web sites should not have JavaScript navigation. If you implement a
non-web, private, seminar viewer using JS, then you have given
yourself more work to do if you plan to put it on the web (since
you'll have to talk all the JS out, and you might as well have done it
without the JS in the first place).

> So my short-term
> goals, in overview, are:
> - creating a presentation vehicle to be run on one machine with output
> to a projector, which entails:
> --- getting the .js and .css stuff working correctly with good
> aesthetics
> --- getting the accordion mechanism programmed
> --- producing content for my first seminar, which will probably
> "Elementary HTML" (which I've been asked to present this Fall)

This is slightly worrying. Would it not be better to use HTML(+CSS)
for such a seminar? Will you be advocating this technique to others
in this seminar?

> I've also got a "tables" version of this which I'm trying to smooth
> out right now.
>
> If that all works well, I may consider presenting getting a hosting
> site and put it up, but I doubt it since there's a ton of stuff on
> that topic already. But I will be surely using the techniques from
> this exercise in developing web sites for small business.

How many small businesses want to be hidden from Google? Forgive me
if I have got it wrong, but what you *seem* to be planning (from the
sketch you posted) is all wrong for the web.

--
Ben.

On Aug 5, 2:10 pm, Ben Bacarisse <ben.use....TakeThisOut@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58....TakeThisOut@USComputerGurus.com> writes:
> >> Things that you can't rely on being there (e.g. scripting, flash,
> >> embedded players, etc.).
>
> > The only one of them I'm using is scripting. So I'd be fine if I put
> > in something that tests whether a user's browser is scripting-enabled
> > and, if not merely display a page indicating that scripting must be
> > enabled. True?
>
> No. It is not good practice, and some of the consequences such as
> hiding the site from most search engines, might not be at all what you
> want.
>
> >> ... then you solution may well be fine
>
> > Thanks for that confirmation.
>
> Eh? You suggest below that you are not implementing a closed
> application so the pre-condition for my saying that your solution "may
> well be fine" is not met. See the above.
>
> >> ... I made the not unreasonable assumption that the
> >> seminar was to be published on the www
>
> > A quite reasonable assumption. I do hope to get to that, but I've
> > got to learn how to crawl before I start running.
>
> You will run better, if your first steps are in the right direction.
> Web sites should not have JavaScript navigation. If you implement a
> non-web, private, seminar viewer using JS, then you have given
> yourself more work to do if you plan to put it on the web (since
> you'll have to talk all the JS out, and you might as well have done it
> without the JS in the first place).
>
> > So my short-term
> > goals, in overview, are:
> > - creating a presentation vehicle to be run on one machine with output
> > to a projector, which entails:
> > --- getting the .js and .css stuff working correctly with good
> > aesthetics
> > --- getting the accordion mechanism programmed
> > --- producing content for my first seminar, which will probably
> > "Elementary HTML" (which I've been asked to present this Fall)
>
> This is slightly worrying. Would it not be better to use HTML(+CSS)
> for such a seminar? Will you be advocating this technique to others
> in this seminar?
>
> > I've also got a "tables" version of this which I'm trying to smooth
> > out right now.
>
> > If that all works well, I may consider presenting getting a hosting
> > site and put it up, but I doubt it since there's a ton of stuff on
> > that topic already. But I will be surely using the techniques from
> > this exercise in developing web sites for small business.
>
> How many small businesses want to be hidden from Google? Forgive me
> if I have got it wrong, but what you *seem* to be planning (from the
> sketch you posted) is all wrong for the web.
>
> --
> Ben.

Hi Ben,

I use scripting for two purpose: (1) to generate the ULs and LIs that
will constitute the menu and (2) to implement the "accordion" aspect.

As far as generating a menu goes, I can generate the HTML using Ruby
and then have the browser run that generated file somehow, either an
import mechanism or an an external reference, or something.

As far a the accordion menu is concerned, I found a lot of CSS
tutorials for, among other things, CSS menus. But first I'm going to
try to get scripting just for my own edification.

> This is slightly worrying. Would it not be better to use HTML(+CSS)
for such a seminar?

It'll depend on the audience. I'll be prepared for it. I taught my
professional seminar for Grumman Data Systems on ASM/360. I had two
weeks to prepare for it. In the first class, I told people that our
programs had to start with "using R15,*" (or something like", but I
didn't know why but I'll tell them the following week. The class went
well and in short order I was management's top instructor. I know
much more about this topic right now than I did back then about ASM,
so don't worry.

> Forgive me if I have got it wrong, but what you *seem* to be planning (from the
sketch you posted) is all wrong for the web.

I'll figure it out. I only learned JS a few weeks ago but I feel
comfortable with it now. Surely there's a number of subtleties I'm
unaware of right now, but I'll deal with it as it comes.

I just started using CSS a week ago, or so, found an example to play
with, and sought help on a few things that I couldn't get working.
Today I found a bunch of good CSS tutorials on the web and my
confidence is now high.

Thanks for alerting me to your concerns.

Best wishes,
Richard

On Aug 7, 5:25 am, Sherm Pendley <spamt....RemoveThis@dot-app.org> wrote:
> RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58....RemoveThis@USComputerGurus.com> writes:
> > It'll depend on the audience. I'll be prepared for it. I taught my
> > professional seminar for Grumman Data Systems on ASM/360. I had two
> > weeks to prepare for it. In the first class, I told people that our
> > programs had to start with "using R15,*" (or something like", but I
> > didn't know why but I'll tell them the following week.
>
> Because the 360 series (and its descendants) uses a base-offset-index
> addressing scheme, and "using R15,*" establishes register R15 as the
> base register. I think - it's been a while.
>
> sherm--
>
> --
> Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians:http://wv-www.net
> Cocoa programming in Perl:http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

Hi Shem,

> "using R15,*" establishes register R15 as the base register

You're quite right. And the asterisk says "store the address in the
Instruction Pointer into R15."

> it's been a while.

Indeed! It was my first engagement as a freelance computer
consultant, and the year was 1970. And at that point I had only
written a little COBOL on the IBM 360. So it was a real challenge to
pick up an ASM manual and learn enough to start teaching a class on
that topic two weeks later.

Since then I've done commercial seminars many places ranging from
Washington DC to Hawaii, served as an adjunct lecturer in one
university for a decade and another as an adjunct professor for two
years.

My point was to allay Ben's concerns that I'd be misinforming or
misleading groups of people because of my woeful lack of knowledge of
CSS at this moment. I'll take a look at Ben's latest response to see
how I fared.

Best wishes,
Richard

On Aug 7, 7:07 am, Ben Bacarisse <ben.use....DeleteThis@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58....DeleteThis@USComputerGurus.com> writes:
> > I use scripting for two purpose: (1) to generate the ULs and LIs that
> > will constitute the menu and (2) to implement the "accordion"
> > aspect.
>
> I know. Both are unsuitable for the web. Please don't teach anyone
> else to do this. (Actually, those in the know will see that some
> parts of the "accordion" nature can be done safely in JS -- provided
> the menu is fulled display when JS is off.)
>
> > As far as generating a menu goes, I can generate the HTML using Ruby
> > and then have the browser run that generated file somehow, either an
> > import mechanism or an an external reference, or something.
>
> Or any of a thousand other methods. None of them really matter
> provided that you don't use JS for the navigation of the site, and you
> don't teach anyone else to do so.
>
> > As far a the accordion menu is concerned, I found a lot of CSS
> > tutorials for, among other things, CSS menus. But first I'm going to
> > try to get scripting just for my own edification.
>
> That's fine. Just don't teach anyone else to use JS for site navigation.
>
> >> This is slightly worrying. Would it not be better to use HTML(+CSS)
> > for such a seminar?
>
> > It'll depend on the audience. I'll be prepared for it.
>
> My worry was just that you might suggest to people that JS can be used
> for site navigation: for example to generate the menus. If the
> audience is not ready for HTML+CSS, you can stick to HTML.
>
> >> Forgive me if I have got it wrong, but what you *seem* to be
> >> planning (from the
> > sketch you posted) is all wrong for the web.
>
> > I'll figure it out. I only learned JS a few weeks ago but I feel
> > comfortable with it now. Surely there's a number of subtleties I'm
> > unaware of right now, but I'll deal with it as it comes.
>
> Excellent. The main issue -- that it shouldn't be used for anything
> too important -- is not a subtlety, but I think you are aware of that
> now.
>
> --
> Ben.

Hi Ben,

> Excellent. The main issue -- that it shouldn't be used for anything
> too important -- is not a subtlety, but I think you are aware of that
> now.

I certainly am. And I'm sure our paths will cross on this newsgroup
a few more times so you'll be able to see whether I've progressed or
not.

Best wishes,
Richard

RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58407.TakeThisOut@USComputerGurus.com> writes:

> It'll depend on the audience. I'll be prepared for it. I taught my
> professional seminar for Grumman Data Systems on ASM/360. I had two
> weeks to prepare for it. In the first class, I told people that our
> programs had to start with "using R15,*" (or something like", but I
> didn't know why but I'll tell them the following week.

Because the 360 series (and its descendants) uses a base-offset-index
addressing scheme, and "using R15,*" establishes register R15 as the
base register. I think - it's been a while.

sherm--

--
Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

RichardL <RichardDummyMailbox58407 RemoveThis @USComputerGurus.com> writes:

> I use scripting for two purpose: (1) to generate the ULs and LIs that
> will constitute the menu and (2) to implement the "accordion"
> aspect.

I know. Both are unsuitable for the web. Please don't teach anyone
else to do this. (Actually, those in the know will see that some
parts of the "accordion" nature can be done safely in JS -- provided
the menu is fulled display when JS is off.)

> As far as generating a menu goes, I can generate the HTML using Ruby
> and then have the browser run that generated file somehow, either an
> import mechanism or an an external reference, or something.

Or any of a thousand other methods. None of them really matter
provided that you don't use JS for the navigation of the site, and you
don't teach anyone else to do so.

> As far a the accordion menu is concerned, I found a lot of CSS
> tutorials for, among other things, CSS menus. But first I'm going to
> try to get scripting just for my own edification.

That's fine. Just don't teach anyone else to use JS for site navigation.

>> This is slightly worrying. Would it not be better to use HTML(+CSS)
> for such a seminar?
>
> It'll depend on the audience. I'll be prepared for it.

My worry was just that you might suggest to people that JS can be used
for site navigation: for example to generate the menus. If the
audience is not ready for HTML+CSS, you can stick to HTML.

>> Forgive me if I have got it wrong, but what you *seem* to be
>> planning (from the
> sketch you posted) is all wrong for the web.
>
> I'll figure it out. I only learned JS a few weeks ago but I feel
> comfortable with it now. Surely there's a number of subtleties I'm
> unaware of right now, but I'll deal with it as it comes.

Excellent. The main issue -- that it shouldn't be used for anything
too important -- is not a subtlety, but I think you are aware of that
now.

--
Ben.