overflow:hidden bug in IE5/Mac?

Except as an exercise in frustration, there is no reason at all to even mess
with those old browsers. They only have like .07% of the market now.
...................................................................................................
"cosmo_canuck" <adamabrams DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1186854779.871957.313220@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

> But in IE5/Mac, it makes all the h2-tagged subheads DISAPPEAR!

In article
<1186854779.871957.313220.DeleteThis@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
cosmo_canuck <adamabrams.DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Well, after dabbling in CSS for a long time I've taken a deep breath
> and am taking the plunge, trying to properly learn CSS properly, step-
> by-step. I'm using a book called CSS: The Missing Manual by David
> Sawyer McFarland and enjoying it very much. But I've run into a
> problem which it doesn't seem to address.
>
> On one of the "exercises", I apply a style of "overflow:hidden" to all
> h2 text - which is simply supposed to prevent the h2 tag's border,
> etc. from running under a sidebar box.
>
> But in IE5/Mac, it makes all the h2-tagged subheads DISAPPEAR!
>
> Removing the overflow property restores the subheads' visibility.
>
> Here's a link to the problem page:
>
> http://www.adamabrams.com/sidebar.html
>
> I did a search but couldn't find specific reference to this bug... is
> it fixable? I know IE5/Mac is old news but I just wonder if a solution
> is floating around there somewhere. It would be nice to know.
>
> Many thanks for any tips or suggestions!
> adam

(1) Take the reference to overflow out of the general body of the
css and stick in the following, the top of the styles in the head
will do or top of the linked sheet:

/* Hides from IE5-mac \*/
h2 {overflow: hidden;}
/* End hide from IE5-mac */

With this you get your h2s back for MacIE but you do not quite
get everything re your side box "problem" - but this is only
triggered with very narrow browser window anyway. All in all, it
is not too bad a situation, MacIE is very small % of users and
and a very small % of these will be triggering the little
cosmetic thing you fret about.

Actually, I have misgivings about your approach re headings and
overflow but I won't go into it here. I reckon the overflow in
many other browsers makes the situation overall worse not better
given your design

--
dorayme

Hey dorayme,

Thanks for your suggestion. I guess this is simply not readily
solvable in IE5/Mac after all, so hiding it is the best approach.

However, I should clarify that this is purely a learning exercise from
a book I'm studying (see original post) and actually wasn't meant to
be a comprehensive approach to this issue. They probably didn't bother
addressing this particular bug because it is in fact a) unsolvable; b)
not likely to be a problem due to the age and low usage of IE5/Mac.

I was just curious as to whether there might be a quick fix. And right
now this is the only version of IE I have so it's the only IE I can
really test with (admittedly this is not particular useful as a test
of real-world usage). However that will change hopefully very soon
when I get my hands on one of the new iMacs which can run Windows.
Then I can preview things in the truly troublesome browsers, IE 6 and
7 for Windows. Looking forward to wrestling with those beasts...

I'm not going to post any more IE5/Mac problems. Thanks to everyone
for their help and suggestions!

Adam

On Aug 12, 9:58 pm, cosmo_canuck <adamabr... DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote:
[...]
> I was just curious as to whether there might be a quick fix. And right
> now this is the only version of IE I have so it's the only IE I can
> really test with
[...]

Just keep in mind that MacIE5 is a completely different browser than
any of the IE for Windows; it has a different rendering engine and
different bugs.

Nick

--
Nick Theodorakis
nick_theodorakis DeleteThis @hotmail.com
contact form:
http://theodorakis.net/contact.html

In article
<1186970334.308479.98940 DeleteThis @j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
cosmo_canuck <adamabrams DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote:

> Hey dorayme,
>
> Thanks for your suggestion. I guess this is simply not readily
> solvable in IE5/Mac after all, so hiding it is the best approach.
>

Hiding the overflow bit gets your headings back, true. As for
what you wanted to prevent namely:

"... the h2 tag's border, etc. from running under a sidebar box".

even in a capable modern browser, the consequences are not what
you would really want in a real situation. Take a look, why would
you want it? It hides more than is reasonable at best. At those
very narrow browser sizes where the text is in "danger" of
dropping under, so does the text under the heading get broken
up...

> However, I should clarify that this is purely a learning exercise from

That is ok, no problem with this. Also as pure, of course, would
be to think up a realistic thing you would want to avoid.

>
> I'm not going to post any more IE5/Mac problems.

Why not. Do you really suppose anyone around here has better
things to do? <g>

--
dorayme

> I don't know the book you cite, but I'm wary of "Missing Manuals" as
> they too often list obscure workarounds that are _not_ what a beginner
> should be filling their head with. Get the correct core straight
> first: This isn't 1999 any more, we're no longer fighting browser bugs
> all day.

No, this is really quite a good book, honestly. It handles the IE 6/7
issues in a way that at least for me is very clear and not distracting
from the "standard core" code. I shouldn't have bothered worrying
about IE5/Mac though - I now see that even this book suggests as much
in the end notes. I'll finish the entire book before bugging anyone
again! 8^)

> Just keep in mind that MacIE5 is a completely different browser than
> any of the IE for Windows; it has a different rendering engine and
> different bugs.
>
> Nick

True - I knew it was a poor substitute (indeed, none at all) for
seeing pages in IE 6 or 7 on a PC. Well, once i get my new Intel iMac
and a copy of Windows, I'll be able to really test this stuff
properly!

Thanks to everyone for their help.
adam
www.adamabrams.com

On 14 Aug, 05:49, cosmo_canuck <adamabr... DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote:

> No, this is really quite a good book, honestly. It handles the IE 6/7
> issues

If it even "handles" the IE6/7 issues, then it's just not a book that
you as a beginner should be reading.

The one CSS book I use and recommend (Lie & Bos) was published in
1999. I can still use it to teach good CSS codding practice to raw
beginners, and we don't even mention IE 7 or its hacks until the very
last moment. Hacking around IE's failures is _not_ what you need to be
learning right now.

On Aug 14, 3:52 am, Andy Dingley <ding....TakeThisOut@codesmiths.com> wrote:
> On 14 Aug, 05:49, cosmo_canuck <adamabr....TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > No, this is really quite a good book, honestly. It handles the IE 6/7
> > issues
>
> If it even "handles" the IE6/7 issues, then it's just not a book that
> you as a beginner should be reading.
>
> The one CSS book I use and recommend (Lie & Bos) was published in
> 1999. I can still use it to teach good CSS codding practice to raw
> beginners, and we don't even mention IE 7 or its hacks until the very
> last moment. Hacking around IE's failures is _not_ what you need to be
> learning right now.

Well, Andy, I appreciate your sentiments re: IE 6/7, and in the
context of simply learning "pure CSS" from scratch, I'd agree. But my
situation is a bit different: 1) I'm not a rank beginner with CSS -
I've already done some fairly sophisticated things with it, but need
to put my random knowledge within a solid context of understanding;
and 2) (and this is the main reason, actually) - I design websites for
a living, and my clients often are using IE6 or 7 on a PC... and they
expect to see their own site correctly in their browser! I want to
give up on the old dinosaur table method of building sites... but I
have to handle IE 6/7 too.

Again, I have to say that I think CSS:TMM does an _outstanding_ job of
making CSS understandable, and promoting _good_ CSS practice. It
clearly segregates the IE stuff and doesn't obsess about it - and
frankly, I absolutely need to know how to accommodate IE for reasons
stated above. It's one of the things I looked for when seeking a CSS
book and this one seems to strike just the right balance. Plus it's
engagingly written, and the visual examples really make the light bulb
turn on over my head as a design- and visually-oriented guy.

On 15 Aug, 03:56, cosmo_canuck <adamabr... RemoveThis @shaw.ca> wrote:
> Again, I have to say that I think CSS:TMM does an _outstanding_ job of
> making CSS understandable, and promoting _good_ CSS practice.

body { font-size: 62.5%; }

If you can still write that after reading any CSS book, throw the book
away.

Andy Dingley wrote:
> On 15 Aug, 03:56, cosmo_canuck <adamabr....RemoveThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Again, I have to say that I think CSS:TMM does an _outstanding_ job of
>> making CSS understandable, and promoting _good_ CSS practice.
>
> body { font-size: 62.5%; }

What makes this even worse is subsequently setting rules like

#main p {
font-size: 1.4em;
}

If your browser uses a minimum font-size, it really blows the text size
out of proportion. What an incredibly *stupid* practice.

> If you can still write that after reading any CSS book, throw the book
> away.

Amen to that. I don't know who this McFarland person is, but he sure
doesn't set a good example.

--
Berg

Bergamot wrote:
> Andy Dingley wrote:
>> On 15 Aug, 03:56, cosmo_canuck wrote:
>>> Again, I have to say that I think CSS:TMM does an _outstanding_ job of
>>> making CSS understandable, and promoting _good_ CSS practice.

>> body { font-size: 62.5%; }

>
>> If you can still write that after reading any CSS book, throw the book
>> away.

He probably got it *from* the book. See below.

>
> Amen to that. I don't know who this McFarland person is, but he sure
> doesn't set a good example.

I'd never heard of him (or Missing Manuals) either, so I looked him up.

Oh, man. I found his site. 5 validation errors in the XHTML and 4 in the
CSS (plus warnings). I think he added the JavaScript deliberately to
slow his site down. When I float my cursor across his page it seems like
my mouse must be dirty or unplugged or something.

And what do we find in the CSS?
body { font-size: 62.5%; }

Avoid http://www.saw mac.com/ (may have an extra space in the URL )


--
John

John Hosking wrote:
> Bergamot wrote:
>> I don't know who this McFarland person is, but he sure
>> doesn't set a good example.
>
> I'd never heard of him (or Missing Manuals) either, so I looked him up.

As did I, and presumably Mr Dingley as well.

> And what do we find in the CSS?
> body { font-size: 62.5%; }

That's the rule Mr Dingley was referring to, from McFarland's web site.
Look down a bit farther in the stylesheet and you'll see the
font-size:1.4em I mentioned.

--
Berg