Suggestions needed for list of links

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> Scripsit Corn Flakes:
>
>>>> I was trying to make a tag-cloud page
>>>
>>> Why? Web pages are supposed to be useable, not puzzles.
>>
>> I don't want to argue why tags or tag-clouds are useful.
>
> Nobody asked you to.
>
> You posted to a public discussion forum. I explained why your idea is
> wrong.

Actually, you didn't. You made the general observation that web pages
are supposed to be usable (to the OP--Jukka wrote "usable", not
"useful"), implying that tag clouds aren't but without explaining why.

I gather, though, that you also do think they aren't useful I'm curious
why you feel this use of compact visual cues is neither useful nor usable.

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>
> Don't get me wrong. As I said, if this is a personal site, do what you
> please. Since your example seems to be about poetry (I don't read the
> language), maybe it is ok... but not for any kind of business or
> information site.
>
errm... a lot of 'business or information' websites are using tag-clouds
as a mean of a metanavigational element. check out:

http://www.spiegel.de
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/
http://del.icio.us/tag/
http://www.istockphoto.com
....




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Bernhard Sturm wrote:
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>
>> Don't get me wrong. As I said, if this is a personal site, do what you
>> please. Since your example seems to be about poetry (I don't read the
>> language), maybe it is ok... but not for any kind of business or
>> information site.
>>
> errm... a lot of 'business or information' websites are using tag-clouds
> as a mean of a metanavigational element. check out:
>
> http://www.spiegel.de
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/
> http://del.icio.us/tag/
> http://www.istockphoto.com
> ...
>

I think by business BTS meant sites which actually sell something (and
ship it to you). He didn't mean personal data organizer or personal
interaction type websites.

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:24:33
GMT Animesh K scribed:

>> Do you realize that I have absolutely no idea what a "tag cloud" is?
>> Somebody was talking about a "cron job" the other day, too, and
>> -phffft! But ignorance is bliss, -at least in the sense that I
>> hardly need any more things to cause me aggravation.
>>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_cloud

Thanks, Animesh. I'm afraid I have to say that my reaction is rather like
Beauregard's (-peeked ahead), though. Now I'll read the rest of the
opinions.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:24:33
> GMT Animesh K scribed:
>
>>> Do you realize that I have absolutely no idea what a "tag cloud" is?
>>> Somebody was talking about a "cron job" the other day, too, and
>>> -phffft! But ignorance is bliss, -at least in the sense that I
>>> hardly need any more things to cause me aggravation.
>>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_cloud
>
> Thanks, Animesh. I'm afraid I have to say that my reaction is rather like
> Beauregard's (-peeked ahead), though. Now I'll read the rest of the
> opinions.
>

That was just to tell whether tag-cloud is a known "category
presentation" trick. Their examples aren't the best and Wiki has a
"brush icon" to denote that the article needs to be improved.

Look into some examples that Bernhard gave.

Animesh K wrote:
> Bernhard Sturm wrote:

>> errm... a lot of 'business or information' websites are using
>> tag-clouds as a mean of a metanavigational element. check out:
>>
>> http://www.spiegel.de
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/
>> http://del.icio.us/tag/
>> http://www.istockphoto.com
>> ...
>>
>
> I think by business BTS meant sites which actually sell something (and
> ship it to you). He didn't mean personal data organizer or personal
> interaction type websites.

sorry, now I am confused. Did you visited any of the above sites, or are
you just guessing?
Doesn't DER SPIEGEL sell it's news? FYI: this is one of the largest
news-magazins worldwide. SPIEGEL ONLINE is the market leader for
news-portals (including their hourly produced online-tv-broadcasts).
Associated to DER SPIEGEL is manager magazin and Harvard
Businessmanager. You have to pay for using their news-services...
And for iStockPhoto: Have you ever visited the site? You have to pay if
you want to use their services...

If you really want the company, that is after the bucks, then check this
tag-cloud (yes, the one company, that also people in the US know about):

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/Tags-Cloud.aspx

(and don't tell me ever again, that tag-clouds are for personal data
organizer websites only

HTH
bernhard

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Bernhard Sturm wrote:
> Animesh K wrote:
>> Bernhard Sturm wrote:
>
>>> errm... a lot of 'business or information' websites are using
>>> tag-clouds as a mean of a metanavigational element. check out:
>>>
>>> http://www.spiegel.de
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/
>>> http://del.icio.us/tag/
>>> http://www.istockphoto.com
>>> ...
>>>
>>
>> I think by business BTS meant sites which actually sell something (and
>> ship it to you). He didn't mean personal data organizer or personal
>> interaction type websites.
>
> sorry, now I am confused. Did you visited any of the above sites, or are
> you just guessing?
> Doesn't DER SPIEGEL sell it's news? FYI: this is one of the largest
> news-magazins worldwide. SPIEGEL ONLINE is the market leader for
> news-portals (including their hourly produced online-tv-broadcasts).
> Associated to DER SPIEGEL is manager magazin and Harvard
> Businessmanager. You have to pay for using their news-services...
> And for iStockPhoto: Have you ever visited the site? You have to pay if
> you want to use their services...
>
> If you really want the company, that is after the bucks, then check this
> tag-cloud (yes, the one company, that also people in the US know about):
>
> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/Tags-Cloud.aspx
>
> (and don't tell me ever again, that tag-clouds are for personal data
> organizer websites only
>
> HTH
> bernhard
>

If you read carefully, I said "I think ..." Certainly I don't know
what's in the mind of BTS.

Again for selling, I said sites which "ship" (like amazon, dell etc.)
unlike companies which sell soft products or data organization tools.

As far as usability of tag-cloud goes, I have stressed before that I
found them usable and that's am trying to incorporate them. Btw, one
question: Do you think links in tag-clouds should be underlined? Jukka
did have a point that nothing looks like a hyperlink ... and I think
underlines improve the reading (at least they tell which words are grouped).

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:18:01 GMT
Animesh K scribed:

>>>>>>>> I was trying to make a tag-cloud page
>>>>>>> Why? Web pages are supposed to be useable, not puzzles.
>>>>>> I don't want to argue why tags or tag-clouds are useful.
>>>>> Nobody asked you to.
>>>> What is your "why" doing up there?
>>> It's a question about motivation. If you take it as a request to
>>> argue, that's your choice, but nobody asked you, or "Corn Flakes", to
>>> argue.
>>>
>>> (I don't expect a person claiming "Corn Flakes" to be his or her full
>>> name to be _able_ to argue.)
>>
>> Perhaps you should let the lad vent. The last thing we need is another
>> cereal killer.
>>
>
> That lad is me. I was toying with google groups a few month ago and took
> that as a handle. I forgot to change it. I changed it as soon as I
> noticed it.

There's nothing wrong with Corn Flakes unless they're overmilked.

> I am not venting any anger. You should see what Jukka's replies were to
> my questions. Either he was unaware of the answers, or he was wasting
> his time.

I know, I was just making a joke. Jukka can be obstreporous at times, and
someone once suggested it might have something to do with the weather in
Finland.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:18:01 GMT
<snip>
>> That lad is me. I was toying with google groups a few month ago and took
>> that as a handle. I forgot to change it. I changed it as soon as I
>> noticed it.
>
> There's nothing wrong with Corn Flakes unless they're overmilked.
>

Just wondering if you ever said that to a woman!

Animesh K wrote:
>
> Again for selling, I said sites which "ship" (like amazon, dell etc.)
> unlike companies which sell soft products or data organization tools.

What would be the difference for products you can ship against products
you can download in relation to tag-clouds?

> Btw, one
> question: Do you think links in tag-clouds should be underlined? Jukka
> did have a point that nothing looks like a hyperlink ... and I think
> underlines improve the reading (at least they tell which words are
> grouped).

Who said that links need to be underlined? It all depends on the way how
you visually communicate all other links on your site. In general you
should not disturb your visitors by introducing different ways of
link-styles. If you have introduced a consistent link-style at your
website (that is well distinguishable as a link-style), then you should
also use this visual style for your tag cloud links. Consistency is the
keyword to usability and not 'underline every link'.

cheers
bernhard

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Bernhard Sturm wrote:
> Animesh K wrote:
>>
>> Again for selling, I said sites which "ship" (like amazon, dell etc.)
>> unlike companies which sell soft products or data organization tools.
>
> What would be the difference for products you can ship against products
> you can download in relation to tag-clouds?

If I go to flickr and view a photo under flowers category, chances are I
am interested in nature's photos. So a tag cloud with landscapes,
seascapes, mountains etc. can be shown to me for further viewing.

If I am customizing a Dell computer, or buying a mouse at buy.com, where
and what will be the nature of tag-cloud? Unless you have other
suggestions.... I haven't seen a site selling stuff with a tag-cloud yet.


As far as I understand, data has relational properties, while objects of
purchase --- though related --- are pretty different. Amazon does have a
nice model to show related purchases (What do people buy eventually who
look at this item?). But this is very different from a tag-cloud.

>
>> Btw, one question: Do you think links in tag-clouds should be
>> underlined? Jukka did have a point that nothing looks like a hyperlink
>> ... and I think underlines improve the reading (at least they tell
>> which words are grouped).
>
> Who said that links need to be underlined? It all depends on the way how

Nobody said so. It is a convention however and usually links are styled
differently than text. If a page has no text but only links, a new or
non-net savvy user will get confused.

> you visually communicate all other links on your site. In general you
> should not disturb your visitors by introducing different ways of
> link-styles. If you have introduced a consistent link-style at your
> website (that is well distinguishable as a link-style), then you should
> also use this visual style for your tag cloud links. Consistency is the
> keyword to usability and not 'underline every link'.

True true! So underlining makes sense at my site since I use icons for
4-5 common tasks and underlined links for other. Thank you.

>
> cheers
> bernhard
>

"Animesh K" <animesh1978.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f9svg9$87q$4@agate.berkeley.edu...
> rf wrote:
>> "Neredbojias" <monstersquasher.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns998C7F7D6641nanopandaneredbojias@198.186.190.161...

>> You _must_ search the tag cloud for one that leads to a 404 (anything
>> past the first page). They *demand* your email address before they let
>> you tell them about it. Don't they ever look at error.log?

> You suffer from selective reading. I had mentioned that the website is
> under development right now [Quote -> it can be accessed (for testing
> purposes, not complete yet!)].

You suffer from missing the point.

If your 404 page demands an email address I will simply not bother. Not even
to type in an invalid one. It is, after all, me doing you a service. And, as
I pointed out, you should already know about the 404 from your server logs.

--
Richard.

rf wrote:
> "Animesh K" <animesh1978.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f9svg9$87q$4@agate.berkeley.edu...
>> rf wrote:
>>> "Neredbojias" <monstersquasher.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns998C7F7D6641nanopandaneredbojias@198.186.190.161...
>
>>> You _must_ search the tag cloud for one that leads to a 404 (anything
>>> past the first page). They *demand* your email address before they let
>>> you tell them about it. Don't they ever look at error.log?
>
>> You suffer from selective reading. I had mentioned that the website is
>> under development right now [Quote -> it can be accessed (for testing
>> purposes, not complete yet!)].
>
> You suffer from missing the point.
>
> If your 404 page demands an email address I will simply not bother. Not even
> to type in an invalid one. It is, after all, me doing you a service. And, as
> I pointed out, you should already know about the 404 from your server logs.
>

It depends how you look at it. Right now the page is being tested so
there are a few broken links (or rather functions).

In the previous version, for which that 404 page was designed, there was
no broken link, so it was really to help the stumbler out. (Say if
someone posts a wrong link in some forum, for example). Whenever I added
a link, I made sure it works.

I will check out the server log, but I haven't done that in the past.
That may be a better tool, I guess, than depending on user's feedback.